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Some clips stutter after render, some don't - please help

bbshopplf

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Trying a very simple fanedit (a dozen or so cuts, no fancy transitions, no FX), but every time I render the movie, some clips stutter while others don't.

My process is to use MakeMKV to rip the BluRay. To get Vegas to read the video track, I use Avidemux to produce an AVC file, formatted for PSP.

I recently noticed the file output (using the preset for PSP) results in a 100 fps file. I don't understand enough to not use the preset, so, I'm limited here.

I'm rendering using Sony's AVC format, the BluRay preset, with the 23.97 fps setting.

What's causing the problem here? Is it frame rate?

I've been experimenting with moving my cut points just a frame or two in each direction, but I can't see a pattern of it effecting which clips stutter and which don't. Clips that I don't touch end up effected upon subsequent renders, sometimes.

Does this sound familiar to anyone?
 

DigModiFicaTion

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bbshopplf said:
What's causing the problem here? Is it frame rate?

Yes

Also,

MKV's are incompatible with Vegas so creating an MKV file is just added time and requires a second process resulting in degredation.

You need to rip the file at its native fps (23.976) and then render at the same fps. The Sony AVC setting should suffice.

I find success using a free program called movierescue. It creates an m2ts file that can be dropped into Vegas. It doesn't work perfectly or every movie however. Star Wars movies in particular, or movies with branching(?)/alternate scenes such as X-MEN DoFP and That Thing You Do. DVDFab is probably your best choice, but will run around $50 or more I believe.

Oh, and welcome to the forum friend :)
 

thecuddlyninja

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Since you already have MakeMKV just use that to create a Vegas-compliant file. Instead of using it to rip an mkv file which you then have to do a container switch to mp4, just click to 'make a copy' in MakeMKV. This will output an m2ts file instead of an mkv and you can edit it in Vegas. 

You never want the frame rate to be anything other than what it originally is in the file or you will get stuttering, blending, all types of issues. You can't change it and change it back because once extra frames are generated you will get the stuttering effect. Just generate an m2ts file with MakeMKV and when you drop it into Vegas say "yes" to matching project settings to that video file.

DigModiFicaTion said:
MKV's are incompatible with Vegas so creating an MKV file is just added time and requires a second process resulting in degredation.

MKV and MP4 are just containers for your H264 file. There are programs which will switch containers losslessly, without degradation. Most "conversions" are indeed lossy re-encodes though, you are correct but you can find programs that simply switch the container losslessly. I used them in the past before realizing that MakeMKV could just give me an m2ts file in the first place!
 

addiesin

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thecuddlyninja said:
Since you already have MakeMKV just use that to create a Vegas-compliant file. Instead of using it to rip an mkv file which you then have to do a container switch to mp4, just click to 'make a copy' in MakeMKV. This will output an m2ts file instead of an mkv and you can edit it in Vegas.

That is my choice of software and editing format as well. Never heard of AVC before.
 

DigModiFicaTion

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thecuddlyninja said:
Instead of using it to rip an mkv file which you then have to do a container switch to mp4, just click to 'make a copy' in MakeMKV. This will output an m2ts file instead of an mkv and you can edit it in Vegas. 

I used them in the past before realizing that MakeMKV could just give me an m2ts file in the first place!

Brain expanded. Thanks Cuddly! :)

*EDIT*
I can't find this magic "make a copy" button/option. Can you share a screenshot?
 

bbshopplf

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DigModiFicaTion said:
bbshopplf said:
What's causing the problem here? Is it frame rate?

Yes

Also,

MKV's are incompatible with Vegas so creating an MKV file is just added time and requires a second process resulting in degredation.

You need to rip the file at its native fps (23.976) and then render at the same fps. The Sony AVC setting should suffice.

I find success using a free program called movierescue. It creates an m2ts file that can be dropped into Vegas. It doesn't work perfectly or every movie however. Star Wars movies in particular, or movies with branching(?)/alternate scenes such as X-MEN DoFP and That Thing You Do. DVDFab is probably your best choice, but will run around $50 or more I believe.

Oh, and welcome to the forum friend :)

Thanks so much for the welcome!

Of course it is indeed a SW film in question here, so that may not help.

I need to learn more about the below reply, though, re: MakeMKV.

Thanks again.
 

bbshopplf

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addiesin said:
thecuddlyninja said:
Since you already have MakeMKV just use that to create a Vegas-compliant file. Instead of using it to rip an mkv file which you then have to do a container switch to mp4, just click to 'make a copy' in MakeMKV. This will output an m2ts file instead of an mkv and you can edit it in Vegas.

That is my choice of software and editing format as well. Never heard of AVC before.

This is blowing my mind as well.

So I did the "Make Backup" (to the other poster, you have to -not- click the icon of the disc to open it. Allow MakeMKV to scan the disc, but then instead of opening the disc, in the icons above you can click "Make Backup". This generates the m2ts files.

Cuddly - however, I'm trying to open the main m2ts file in Vegas, and it's only opening the audio files. It's telling me "This file has no video".

Am I doing something wrong?

EDIT: I just realized I selected the "Decrypt video files" option before making the backup. I'm going to run it again, without checking that box, to see if it makes a difference.

Thanks so much for this help.
 

bbshopplf

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I just backed up the bluray with MakeMKV to create the m2ts files, without checking the "Decrypt" option, but now Vegas won't open them at all.

So I'm stuck with decrypted m2ts files however Vegas won't recognize a video stream.

Thoughts?
 

thecuddlyninja

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It'll make a bunch of m2ts files, one for every video clip on the disc (the menu, trailers, extras, etc, etc). You just need to find the biggest one, that'll be the actual movie. Did you do that and try loading that file in Vegas? A lot of the other m2ts files generated probably won't work.

EDIT: If you already have the MKV you made earlier, you can use a combination of mp4box and mkvtoolnix to losslessly switch containers. Both are really helpful tools in general, if you want to add multiple audio streams to video or whatever. So to add a commentary track to your fanedit or something like that. I also use them often because I take commentary tracks that I have on DVD and add them to a bluray rip of a movie (maddeningly sometimes you don't get all the DVD features on the bluray version). Anyway, I digress. We should figure out how to get the m2ts file working but it's good to know about these tools regardless.
 

bbshopplf

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thecuddlyninja said:
It'll make a bunch of m2ts files, one for every video clip on the disc (the menu, trailers, extras, etc, etc). You just need to find the biggest one, that'll be the actual movie. Did you do that and try loading that file in Vegas? A lot of the other m2ts files generated probably won't work.

EDIT: If you already have the MKV you made earlier, you can use a combination of mp4box and mkvtoolnix to losslessly switch containers. Both are really helpful tools in general, if you want to add multiple audio streams to video or whatever. So to add a commentary track to your fanedit or something like that. I also use them often because I take commentary tracks that I have on DVD and add them to a bluray rip of a movie (maddeningly sometimes you don't get all the DVD features on the bluray version). Anyway, I digress. We should figure out how to get the m2ts file working but it's good to know about these tools regardless.

I'm trying to add the biggest file on the disc (40 GB). No other file even comes close. I'm looking in the "STREAM" folder, which is the only folder I've found with m2ts files.

Vegas loads the clip into the timeline, but it's only loading the six audio files.

When I ask it to "Match Project Properties to Media" and select the file, Vegas reports "This file has no video track."

I'm using Vegas 13 Pro, if it matters.

I appreciate the headsup about the other software. I've not heard of mp4box.

My roadblock has always been "how to get a bluray into a format Vegas will read". It's become a holy grail.

I'm not concerned about keeping the ultimate best quality, I really just want to get the video into a format Vegas won't poo poo.

When I use MediaInfo to analyze the m2ts file, it clearly shows the video track (AVC), several audio tracks, several subtitle tracks, etc.

Perhaps I'm importing into Vegas the wrong way?
 

thecuddlyninja

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bbshopplf said:
I'm trying to add the biggest file on the disc (40 GB). No other file even comes close. I'm looking in the "STREAM" folder, which is the only folder I've found with m2ts files.

Vegas loads the clip into the timeline, but it's only loading the six audio files.

When I ask it to "Match Project Properties to Media" and select the file, Vegas reports "This file has no video track."

I'm using Vegas 13 Pro, if it matters.

I appreciate the headsup about the other software. I've not heard of mp4box.

My roadblock has always been "how to get a bluray into a format Vegas will read". It's become a holy grail.

I'm not concerned about keeping the ultimate best quality, I really just want to get the video into a format Vegas won't poo poo.

When I use MediaInfo to analyze the m2ts file, it clearly shows the video track (AVC), several audio tracks, several subtitle tracks, etc.

Perhaps I'm importing into Vegas the wrong way?

Can you play the video file and make sure it looks good, like in VLC player or something?
 

bbshopplf

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thecuddlyninja said:
bbshopplf said:
I'm trying to add the biggest file on the disc (40 GB). No other file even comes close. I'm looking in the "STREAM" folder, which is the only folder I've found with m2ts files.

Vegas loads the clip into the timeline, but it's only loading the six audio files.

When I ask it to "Match Project Properties to Media" and select the file, Vegas reports "This file has no video track."

I'm using Vegas 13 Pro, if it matters.

I appreciate the headsup about the other software. I've not heard of mp4box.

My roadblock has always been "how to get a bluray into a format Vegas will read". It's become a holy grail.

I'm not concerned about keeping the ultimate best quality, I really just want to get the video into a format Vegas won't poo poo.

When I use MediaInfo to analyze the m2ts file, it clearly shows the video track (AVC), several audio tracks, several subtitle tracks, etc.

Perhaps I'm importing into Vegas the wrong way?

Can you play the video file and make sure it looks good, like in VLC player or something?

Great question.

I played it in VLC, and while it plays fine, it's starting about 5 minutes into the film.

???

EDIT: It appears the film is split across multiple m2ts files, which I imagine messes with the headers. Vegas does not like this. :)

So now I'm looking at some sort of m2ts file combiner?
 

addiesin

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Maybe there's a copy protection issue with the particular movie you're trying to use?

At this point, I would recommend trying a free trial of DVDFab. When MakeMKV doesn't work for me (which is rare but does happen) it doesn't warn me anything's wrong with the file, I just find out while trying to work with the video and realize something's wrong at that point. That happened to me with X-Men 3. In that case I ended up doing a new disc copy with DVDFab and it removed the copy protection, and the resulting file worked fine in Vegas/Premiere.

Cuddly, if this sounds incorrect please correct me.
 

thecuddlyninja

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Addie,
I've never used DVDFab but if that process works, then for sure go for it. If it were me, I'd do what I know which might not be the easiest way. I'd make an MKV with MakeMKV, and use Mp4box to change the container. But if DVDFab is also free and easier, then great.

Either way, let us know how it goes, I'm sure we can figure this out and get you an editable file. I want to try loading an m2ts file from MakeMKV into Vegas as well just to check it out but I won't be able to for a few days.
 

bbshopplf

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Thank you all, so much, for the time/effort here.

It's always the video stream that Vegas doesn't like, and it's my understanding (from browsing forums like these) that it's Sony's concern about copy protection. If Vegas even suspects there's a copy protection concern, it rejects the file.

Cuddly - that said, I don't know that changing the container will matter, as it'll still be the same AVC video file.

To try it though, to which container do you recommend I use? MKV to what?

I'll also give the DVDFab a shot.
 

thecuddlyninja

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I would try DVDFab since that sounds like the simplest process. If that doesn't work, use MakeMKV to get an MKV file and MP4box to change it to an mp4 file, which Vegas should handle.
 

addiesin

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I think you'll still have to demux if you use DVDFab. I think MP4box can do that. If not, try the open source program TS Muxer. It can remove the container of MP4 or MKV without re-encoding to get you a workable TS or M2TS video file. 


I personally am not a big fan of DVDFab and usually use MakeMKV for ripping/disc copying. It's just when I run into a problem with that workflow (so far it's only happened once, and it's a copy protection issue) that I open DVDFab and try that way instead.
 

bbshopplf

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addiesin said:
I think you'll still have to demux if you use DVDFab. I think MP4box can do that. If not, try the open source program TS Muxer. It can remove the container of MP4 or MKV without re-encoding to get you a workable TS or M2TS video file. 


I personally am not a big fan of DVDFab and usually use MakeMKV for ripping/disc copying. It's just when I run into a problem with that workflow (so far it's only happened once, and it's a copy protection issue) that I open DVDFab and try that way instead.

It's a real testament to Sony's desire to curb this sort of thing - this is just impossible.

I did a fresh rip with MakeMKV (a rip of the files, not a "backup").

I used TSMuxer and converted it every way possible. Vegas refuses to load the video, regardless of method I use.

There's something about the AVC file that MakeMKV produces (presumably something about the copy protection), that Vegas identifies as "modified".

Unless I go the DVDFab route, I believe a re-encode is inevitable, and honestly I'm fine with that.

If that's the case, I'm back to re-encoding to something Vegas will accept, and I'm back to square one - my Avidemux solution produces a 100fps video (rendered for PSP), and while Vegas opens it without blinking, I get the seemingly random stuttering for some clips but not others.

I've also tried MKV Cleaver in the past, selecting a "Convert h.264 file to AVI" option, but Vegas hates that too, apparently because there's no audio.

#stuck

EDIT: Trying DVDFab today, to see if it produces an M2TS file Vegas won't snub.

EDIT2: DVDFab's M2TS file will not load video into Vegas either. Audio comes through fine; it plays fine in VLC. Vegas just won't accept it.

So I need to re-encode in a manner that masks/removes whatever data is tipping Vegas off to the fact this is a rip. What's special about the "PSP" thing that Vegas doesn't mind? Or, what would give me a truly "fresh" re-encode?
 

bbshopplf

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In another forum, someone pointed out "since Vegas opens the 'PSP file', why not let Vegas re-encode it to a standard MPEG-2, at 23.97, etc., and then work in Vegas with that file?"

So while the process is ridiculously cumbersome now, including two re-encodes, I'm still working with files staying around a 20 mb/s bitrate, knowing my final product will probably be around 8-10 mb/s (so how bad can the degradation be?)

I'll redo my edit today or this weekend, and post here how it went.

If anyone's curious about which movie is causing such challenges, it's a Revenge of the Sith edit, working with the bluray boxed set (the OT plus PT) put out several years ago. Having been over these forums so much, now, I see people refer to the challenges specifically with these SW blurays pretty consistently.
 

thecuddlyninja

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If you're not having success doing it any of the lossless ways, I would say it is MUCH better to have one re-encode than two. So if it must be done, generate an MKV with MakeMKV and then use Handbrake to encode to MP4 with the max quality setting. This is not ideal but I did this in my first three edits because I didn't know any better and I got nothing but compliments on the visual quality. I don't think I should recommend doing this but it beats the hell out of re-encoding twice.
 
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