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Red River - Bogdanovich Cut

ParanoidAndroid

ParanoidAndroid

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Yet another edit inspired by the comments of a critic, at least as far as I can tell since I am unable to find a first-hand source.

Howard Hawks' 1948 western exists in two versions, a 133-minute pre-release cut and a 127-minute theatrical cut, after fan-editing his previous film this appears to be a case of deja vu! They are also respectively known as the book version and voice version, the former punctuating the film with inserts of written text on book pages and the latter with narration from the actor Walter Brennan, but the theatrical cut is also known for having a differently edited ending. To avoid the wrath of Howard Hughes, who claimed plagiarism of one of his earlier productions (1943's The Outlaw), certain shots and lines were removed/changed to reduce similarities: this is generally considered to hurt the film, creating a noticeable continuity error for one thing.

Opinion on which version is better overall though is split, the pre-release cut/book version is ironically apparently the better known one nowadays. Hawks himself supposedly preferred the theatrical cut/voice version (the Criterion set claiming as much), understandable if it was the result of further refinement over the earlier version, excluding the truncated ending one would suppose. Peter Bogdanovich is said to have suggested that the theoretically ideal watching experience would be to play the theatrical cut until just before the conclusion, then change over to the pre-release cut for the smoother ending. With both now available restored on blu-ray it only seems right to put that idea into practice.

Anybody interested in this? My extended cut of "The Big Sleep" (albeit based on an older edit) has generated many more requests than I thought it would (a very nice surprise), so it seems that enthusiasm for older films on this site is strong! It should be a very simple edit, with literally one or two cuts between sources, so am slightly surprised that nobody (as far as I can tell) has done it already. Another, more complex, proposition would be to take the longer pre-release version then remove the book inserts and replace them with the voiceover from the shorter theatrical cut, perhaps calling it the "Extended Voice Version", but before anything can happen I need to wait for my just-ordered discs to arrive!
 
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Yeah I'd definitely be interested in this. I thought about doing this during the lockdowns a couple of years ago after listening to Bogdanovich talk about it.

I'd agree that the theatrical cut is the way to go for the bulk of it, it's clearly the more refined edit - not least because of the nice narration. But those last few minutes are rough, with the whole Howard Hughes legal issue forcing Hawks to change/mess up the rhythm of the climactic scene. Right now I just manually switch from one version to the other for the last 10 minutes, but this would be obviously way better. So I'd 100% like to see this.
 
Still waiting for my discs to arrive, in the meantime here is a slight adaptation of my favourite of the theatrical posters for use as a page image. Will alter the thread title to match, couldn't fit the full "The Peter Bogdanovich Cut" in very neatly!

full
 
Yeehaw, the set has finally arrived!

Already ripping the discs (need to so I can watch them anyway, wrong region for my blu-ray player), anticipate that the "edit" will be ready for next week.
 
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Just had my first look at the theatrical cut ending, ouch! Must have been infuriating to the filmmakers, having this section edited just fine only to have to change it because of legal threats.

Second disc ripping now, might even put everything together tonight, wonder if this could beat the record for shortest time between receipt of the source material and exporting a fanedit! Hardly seems fair though, since it involves just attaching a disclaimer and swapping out the endings.
 
ParanoidAndroid said:
Just had my first look at the theatrical cut ending, ouch! Must have been infuriating to the filmmakers, having this section edited just fine only to have to change it because of legal threats.

Second disc ripping now, might even put everything together tonight, wonder if this could beat the record for shortest time between receipt of the source material and exporting a fanedit! Hardly seems fair though, since it involves just attaching a disclaimer and swapping out the endings.
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Don't tempt fate, I thought my edit of The Untouchables was to be done in half an hour, and here I am months later still tweaking the black and white... 😅 (not comparable, of course, since this one doesn't involve visual tweaks, but one never knows!)
 
Dwight Fry said:
Don't tempt fate, I thought my edit of The Untouchables was to be done in half an hour, and here I am months later still tweaking the black and white... 😅 (not comparable, of course, since this one doesn't involve visual tweaks, but one never knows!)
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Too right!
 
Just looked over the interview with Bogdanovich included in the special features, nice to hear for oneself the comments that inspired this "edit".

"...however, the ending that's on the book version of the picture is actually the ending that Hawks intended. So, if you wanted to really find the absolutely perfect version that Howard Hawks would have approved, you'd have to use the voice version up until Wayne gets off the horse, starts walking through the cows, then you'd have to cut to the book version and use that ending."

Have just about done that, with the addition of the end credits that are only in the theatrical cut (voice version), since a few people listed here are not on the opening credits, Ivan Parry, Paul Fiero and Billie Self (this is also an opportunity to spot the spelling inconsistencies): after removing the modern-looking studio plates this also brings back the runtime to the advertised 127 minutes. The only issue of any kind was making unobtrusive audio fades, the pre-release version being about 5 dB louder (according to Resolve).

Haven't got time to sit down and watch this through anytime soon, but will upload anyway for when I can. If anybody wants to preview this just PM me, the only things to look out for as far as I am aware being the two fades between sources in the final five minutes, if they are not noticeable all is well!
 
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ParanoidAndroid said:
Just looked over the interview with Bogdanovich included in the special features, nice to hear for oneself the comments that inspired this "edit".

"...however, the ending that's on the book version of the picture is actually the ending that Hawks intended. So, if you wanted to really find the absolutely perfect version that Howard Hawks would have approved, you'd have to use the voice version up until Wayne gets off the horse, starts walking through the cows, then you'd have to cut to the book version and use that ending."

Have just about done that, with the addition of the end credits that are only in the theatrical cut (voice version), since a few people listed here are not on the opening credits, Ivan Parry, Paul Fiero and Billie Self (this is also an opportunity to spot the spelling inconsistencies): after removing the modern-looking studio plates this also brings back the runtime to the advertised 127 minutes. The only issue of any kind was making unobtrusive audio fades, the pre-release version being about 5 dB louder (according to Resolve).

Haven't got time to sit down and watch this through anytime soon, but will upload anyway for when I can. If anybody wants to preview this just PM me, the only things to look out for as far as I am aware being the two fades between sources in the final five minutes, if they are not noticeable all is well!
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PMing you!
 
Forgot to post yesterday, the "edit" is complete, uploaded and ready for viewing. If interested just PM.

Still have vague plans of doing an "Extended Voice Version" but won't think about that for a good while yet, am quite busy no and this would require actual work!
 
ParanoidAndroid said:
Forgot to post yesterday, the "edit" is complete, uploaded and ready for viewing. If interested just PM.

Still have vague plans of doing an "Extended Voice Version" but won't think about that for a good while yet, am quite busy no and this would require actual work!
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Would that be the voice version plus the extra bits in the book version, only without all that text? Guess it could be interesting, if only to see how the pacing gets affected.
 
Dwight Fry said:
Would that be the voice version plus the extra bits in the book version, only without all that text? Guess it could be interesting, if only to see how the pacing gets affected.
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That is the intention, imagine this would be easier than cutting up the book version.
 
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Succumbed to the temptation of doing a time difference comparison (with the help of movie-censorship.com), excluding the restored ending in the book version there seem to be only about three minutes worth of substantial additional material (a couple of ~30-second conversations and 2-minute one), the rest either accommodating the book pages or otherwise slightly lengthened shot/sequences. There are a few instances of one cut having more footage during a particular sequence, but the one with less at that point having unique material.

Anyhow, need time to go through properly and see what, if anything, is worth adding!
 
From my recollection, none of the extra stuff was of importance. Neither makes or breaks the film, but overall may be considered filler. I remember being pleasantly surprised to see how much better the pacing felt in the voice version (my first viewing ever had been of the book version) other than of course the truncated ending, but I don't know if it was just the fault of the overabundance of book pages.
 
I personally really enjoyed the book version, the first and only one I knew for a while, regardless of the text inserts. It would be interesting seeing it and then the voice version in quick succession to see if anything felt like anything important was missing from the latter.
 
Put together an initial "Extended Voice Version", same as the Bogdanovich Cut but with 4 extra dialogue sections adding 3 more minutes for a 130-minute total runtime. Have NOT had the chance to go through both originals with a finetooth comb, but as far as I am aware the remaining three minutes exclusive to the preview cut/pre-release cut/book version consist of the page inserts and generally looser cutting.

I will not mention where these additions are, depending of course on how familiar one is with the original it would be interesting to see if they feel to be out of place. To anybody who would like to look over this first draft, please PM me!
 
Finally watched through the 130-minute version mentioned above, all seems fine! Think that this is now my personal preference for watching Red River, the extra scenes from the Book Version meaning that you get to live in the world of the film for a little longer, with the narration and generally tighter editing of the Voice Version keeping the pace up.

Although quadrupling the number of transitions between sources compared to the "Bogdanovich Cut" it is still a very slight edit, a whole 4 scenes (totalling 3 minutes) from the Book Version are added to the Voice Version. I see no reason for the listing to not be ready for next week, but anybody interested right now is welcome to request it beforehand.
 
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