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Overlapping frames / ghosting issues

yads

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Between all the cuts in the film for the middle hour or so I get a ghosting, where the last shot and the next shot are both on screen for one frame, causing a nasty flash when you watch the film. Is this a form of interlacing?

Here's a screenshot of it:
http://www.pulapartment.co.uk/Image2.jpg

I tried getting rid of it using Virtual Dub and TMPGenc Plus, and neither did anything. If anyone here knows what it is and how I lose it I'd be really grateful.
 

Q2

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It could be one of two things: interlacing (though I don't see the typical interlacing lines), or it could be that you're cuts are overlapping by a frame or two and your NLE is auto-fading them.
 

ThrowgnCpr

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First of all. Please read the forum rules. A descriptive title is require. (it has been changed for you this time...). It's a lot harder to get help if you post vague descriptions.

Second, you may have a framerate error. Did you inadvertently force 29.97 on your 23.976 source
 

Captain Khajiit

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Those are almost certainly blended frames caused by an improper inverse telecine. (I cannot rule out Thunderclap's suggestion of autofading by your NLE, but it seems less likely to me.) You need to post your whole workflow, so I can try to work out where you went wrong. I take it that your source is an NTSC DVD.
 

yads

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ThrowgnCpr: Sorry about the thread title mistake.

Thunderclap: it's literally happening with all the cuts (not my editing cuts) that are in the film for the middle hour of the film.

Captain Khajiit:The DVD is PAL, and was ripped at 25 fps with Win X Platinum. When it came out all screwed up I tried ripping it with DVD Fab, and the same thing happened. The file is claiming to be progressive, and certainly when I tried deinterlacing it didn't do anything to fix it.

Embarrassingly, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by workflow. I'll see if I can find a log file; if I can I'll post it here.
 

Captain Khajiit

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Your workflow is the steps that you take to make your edit. You have already told me that you ripped the DVD with DVD Fab, which was the correct way to rip it (forget Win X Platinum). That is the first step. What do you do after this and which editing program are you using?

If this is happening with every cut, it might well be an issue with your NLE after all. You should not see blended frames like this with a PAL movie unless the studio performed a poor PAL-to-NTSC conversion when authoring the disc, which is not at all uncommon. I take it that this is the PAL DVD of Star Trek: The Motion Picture (director's cut?). I think I have that disc somewhere. If so, I shall have a look at it later and let you know if this problem is present in the source.

By the way, you should never deinterlace a PAL movie. The file is almost certainly progressive as it claims, but which program did you use to determine that? Mediainfo?
 

yads

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The editing software I use is Sony Vegas. I use Vegas to judge if it's progressive or not and sometimes an app called Bitrate Viewer.

Yeah it's a PAL DVD of Star Trek: The Motion Picture Director's Cut.

When I wrote before 'every cut', I was referring to the cuts Robert Wise made not me. I fear I may not have explained that clearly enough in the previous post.

My guess would be it's a problem with the DVD - although it doesn't occur the whole way through (to be precise it starts with the scene that screenshot comes from, when Kirk and Decker talk, right after the worm hole). It ends about the time Spock does his space walk.

Thanks for the info, I appreciate it. I didn't know that PAL's are always progressive.
 

Cactus

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A PAL DVD of a film *can* be interlaced. This is when the fields for some reason end up on separate frames. This could be because of a badly timed analog source for example. There is a VirtualDub filter called "PALdeinterlace" which will shift either the odd or even lines of an image to the next frame.
To be sure where the problem lies, open the original DVD VOB into VDub. It will show you the true original frames and if it's ghosted there, the source is simply bad.
 

Captain Khajiit

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yads said:
When I wrote before 'every cut', I was referring to the cuts Robert Wise made not me. I fear I may not have explained that clearly enough in the previous post.

Ah! That makes a difference. I shall check the DVD anyway, but I suspect a bungled PAL-to-NTSC conversion. That is why I was almost certain earlier that you had an NTSC source. Those blended frames are usually present when someone hasn't performed a proper inverse telecine.

Did you convert the movie to lossless AVI before editing? I would recommend that you do this. Most editors find that it is far better to do this than to edit the MPEG-2, although some, such as Kevinicus, use Sony Vegas to edit MPEG-2 files without problems. Tranzor has posted that the new Vegas (10) is better at doing this than older versions. Still, I would conert to lagarith AVI.

yads said:
Thanks for the info, I appreciate it. I didn't know that PAL's are always progressive.

PAL movies are 99.9% of the same time, although they are usually encoded as interlaced -- just to confuse you!
 

Captain Khajiit

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Cactus said:
A PAL DVD of a film *can* be interlaced. This is when the fields for some reason end up on separate frames.

That is phase shifting, not interlacing. Usually it affects PAL TV broadcasts; only rarely does it affect PAL DVDs.

EDIT: sorry for the double post. I hit the wrong button.
 

yads

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I've switched several times between AVI and MPEG-2, with various codecs (including lagarith), and found difficulties at times with all of them; actually the last few days I've been using VOBs, which at least in the example of The Thin Red Line is working pretty well.

Generally though, I like MPEG-2 more than AVI. I find that where Vegas is concerned, key factors are how many times the program crashes and how smooth the preview player runs - and in my experience MPEG-2's usually work better.

Cactus: thanks, I just downloaded 'PALdeinterlace' and will try it out.
 

Captain Khajiit

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It is interlaced but only in the sections to which material has been added. Wretched Paramount! Their Next Generation DVDs are notorious, so I should have suspected this. I would imagine that this is because they did the new effects for the director's cut in video. This is one of the reasons that a Blu-ray of The Motion Picture might not be possible, as they would have to do all the effects again.

This is the only PAL (film-based) movie that I have ever seen that has true interlacing. The problem is that most of the movie is fully progressive, as it should be, but encoded as interlaced, as it usually is, so if you deinterlace the whole thing, you will mess up the sections that are not video. I would imagine that when you imported your movie into Vegas, it deinterlaced it. This would have blended the frames, resulting in the screenshot that you posted. I will have a think and let you know if I can do anything else to help.
 

yads

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Ah ok,that all makes sense. Before today I was getting to the point of considering going out and buying a different version of the film to complete the edit. But clearly that won't help.

My other option, which I actually started, was to clean all the cuts up manually, one at a time. I got through the Decker/Kirk/Bones scene before deciding it was a ridiculous solution.

Thanks for your help - at least I know now that it's Paramount's fault and not mine.
 

Captain Khajiit

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No worries. I will keep thinking.

It is almost certain that the NTSC DVD of the director's cut of this film can be inverse telecined to fix the video material. It would almost certainly be easier to do this than work with the PAL source. PAL sources are a pain in the neck, which is why I don't use them any more. I always buy the NTSC DVD to edit. The problems with NTSC can be more easily solved than those with PAL, and you don't have to convert to NTSC at the end, which is a bonus. I cannot guarantee that these problems could be fixed with the NTSC disc, if you bought that, but it is likely.

Funnily enough I was thinking about editing this film at some point too. What is your fanedit idea, yads?


EDIT: you can often buy the NTSC DVD second-hand on ebay or Amazon for a bargain price, especially now that Blu-ray is taking off and people are selling off their DVD collections.
 

yads

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My idea was just to fix the pacing of the film, which is far too slow, IMO. I also wanted to shift the focus off the special effects (for me TMP is guilty of falling into the trap Lucas identified: Paramount seemed to think that Star Wars' success was due to the effects), and onto the characters, so I put back a few deleted scenes (the quality of those scenes is not ideal but still) and got it down to 95 minutes. I'm happy with the outcome, except for the problem with the cuts.
 

Captain Khajiit

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I finally managed to get back to this. While I cannot guarantee that this will work for the whole film, it worked on the sections that I tested. You will need to see how you go and watch for any interlacing that has been left over.

You will need DGIndex and Avisynth -- I'm using 2.5.8 -- with the following plugins.

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=156028
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=98985
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=147695
http://avisynth.org.ru/mvtools/mvtools2.html#download

Put the plugins in the "plugins" folder inside your Avisynth directory. Depending on what other Avisynth plugins you already have installed you might need to track down others too: these were just the ones I had to specifically find for this filter.

Load your demuxed m2v into DGIndex.

Video-->Field Operation-->Honor Pulldown Flags

Save your project as a .d2v file.

Write an Avisynth script.

Code:
mpeg2source("Your_Path\Your_Project.d2v")
QTGMC()
SelectEven()
Open the script in Virtualdubmod. Choose fast processing mode. Select compression-->lagarith (YV12). Save as AVI.

You might want to trim out a section to see the results for yourself. You can do so like this.

Code:
mpeg2source("Your_Path\Your_Project.d2v")
Trim(x,y)#x is the number of the first frame of your section; y is the name for the last frame
QTGMC()
SelectEven()
It will probably be extremely slow -- about 1fps, but the results should be worth it.
 
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