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DTS-HD Preservation

JackReacher

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Hi all

I want to edit a film in Premiere Pro without doing any audio mixing.

I will extract 6 wav files from the DTS-HD MA 5.1 file and then link all of them to the video track in Premiere. After editing I want Premiere to output the edited wav files individually without any mixing whatsoever. I want to recover the 6 wav files with whatever cuts I made and then use DTS-HD Master Suite to convert it back to DTS-HD MA 5.1.

Is it possible to do this on Premiere? I want to preserve as much as possible, bit depth, frequency etc.

Thanks in advance
 

Captain Khajiit

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JackReacher said:
Is it possible to do this on Premiere? I want to preserve as much as possible, bit depth, frequency etc.

Any decent NLE ought to be able do this.  It should be a matter of decoding your audio properly and then using the correct project settings, followed by the correct rendering settings.  You can decode the DTS-HD MA 5.1 with eac3to.

Code:
eac3to input.dtshd output.wavs

After editing I want Premiere to output the edited wav files individually without any mixing whatsoever.

Do you want to output the wavs individually or output as individual wavs?  The former implies that you want to output them one by one, which you should be able to do by muting every track apart from the one that you want, rendering, and then repeating the process for the other tracks.  The latter implies that you want output them as separate files but all in go, which should be possible in Premiere, but even if it's not, it doesn't matter: you should be able to output the 5.1 in a single file as W64, RF64, or even FLAC, and then use eac3to to split the file back into individual wavs for use in the encoding suite – I do this all the time (just not in Premiere).


Code:
eac3to input.w64 output.wavs
 

JackReacher

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Thanks a lot for that. I probably would end up doing exporting them individually then. I just don't want Premiere to do anything to the audio other than trim it according to the video.
 

JackReacher

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Hi Captain

I demuxed AC3 audio from the footage that I want to spice with the DTS HD footage. However there is a delay of 80ms labelled on the AC3 file like this:

VTS_01_1 T81 2_0ch 192Kbps DELAY 80ms.ac3

Now if I pass that file through eac3to to output it as wav would it do anything to the delay? If not, is there a way to delay an audio track by that length on premiere? I can't seem to get a length reading between video and audio clip on premiere.

Thanks a lot
 

Captain Khajiit

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It looks as if you are using DGIndex on the VOBs.  After ripping the DVD with AnyDVD or DVDFab, it is better to use PGCDemux to demux it.  That way, a delay value is often not necessary.  (PGCDemux has a Check A/V delay button; if it reports a delay, you might or might not actually need to add it.)
 

JackReacher

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The reason why I use DGIndex is because I only want to demux certain sections and to force film. When I use the Check A/V delay button on PGCDemux then it does say 0msecs. 

So what would be the best way to demux portions of a dvd without getting an ac3 file that needs a delay?
 

Captain Khajiit

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JackReacher said:
The reason why I use DGIndex is because I only want to demux certain sections and to force film.

I understood what you were doing, but I always encourage people to follow best practice.  Loading the VOBs into DGIndex is possible (and is sometimes necessary as a last resort), but it's better to demux the disc with PGCDemux: it's a more flexible tool, and a delay value is usually unnecessary.  

When I use the Check A/V delay button on PGCDemux then it does say 0msecs. 

There you go!

So what would be the best way to demux portions of a dvd without getting an ac3 file that needs a delay?

Getting an AC-3 file that needs a delay seems to be an inevitable consequence of demuxing portions of a DVD.  I'd always demux the full disc.  It's better to avoid having to add a delay value in the first place than to add one that might or might not be fully accurate.

If you are concerned about rendering only a short portion of the disc to lossless AVI, then you can demux the video and audio with PGCDemux and trim out the relevant portion in the script that you feed to VirtualDub.

Code:
vid=MPEG2Source("Wherever\Whatever.d2v").ConverttoRGB()

aud=NicAc3Source("Wherever\Whatever.ac3")

Audiodub(vid,aud).Trim(X,Y).SoundOut()

All you would need to do is change X and Y to reflect the start and end frames of the portion of the video that you want.
 

TV's Frink

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Captain Khajiit said:
Getting an AC-3 file that needs a delay seems to be an inevitable consequence of demuxing portions of a DVD.  I'd always demux the full disc.  It's better to avoid having to add a delay value in the first place than to add one that might or might not be fully accurate.

Just wanted to mention that one way to do it is to start by ripping only the portion you want, then use pgcdemux.  I've done this with DVDShrink many times without incident.
 

JackReacher

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I understood what you were doing, but I always encourage people to follow best practice.  Loading the VOBs into DGIndex is possible (and is sometimes necessary as a last resort), but it's better to demux the disc with PGCDemux: it's a more flexible tool, and a delay value is usually unnecessary.  

I understand. So if I use PGCDemux then how do I deal with the 2:3 pull down ? The source is film so it should be 24000/1001

If you are concerned about rendering only a short portion of the disc to lossless AVI, then you can demux the video and audio with PGCDemux and trim out the relevant portion in the script that you feed to VirtualDub.

Code:
vid=MPEG2Source("Wherever\Whatever.d2v").ConverttoRGB()

aud=NicAc3Source("Wherever\Whatever.ac3")

Audiodub(vid,aud).Trim(X,Y).SoundOut()

All you would need to do is change X and Y to reflect the start and end frames of the portion of the video that you want.

Might be a stupid question, but will those commands work in a .avs script or does virtualdub have it's own code/syntax?

If my audio source was PCM .wav then what plugin should I use for the input audio file? 

Why do you use the ConverttoRGB() function? I noticed that if you output uncompressed AVI then it is RGB. Is that a good thing if you're dealing with yuv footage in premiere and also if you want to match color grading?

Thanks a lot for all the help, it's been really beneficial.
 

Captain Khajiit

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TVs Frink said:
Just wanted to mention that one way to do it is to start by ripping only the portion you want, then use pgcdemux.  I've done this with DVDShrink many times without incident.

DVDShink is very out of date and shouldn't be used any longer.


JackReacher said:
Might be a stupid question, but will those commands work in a .avs script or does virtualdub have it's own code/syntax?

The script is for AviSynth.

JackReacher said:
So if I use PGCDemux then how do I deal with the 2:3 pull down ? The source is film so it should be 24000/1001/

You deal with the pulldown as you would have originally.  Using PGCDemux is an intermediate step.  It does not replace using DGIndex to make an index.  You can select Forced Film or use Honor Pulldown Flags in concert with TIVTC.

JackReacher said:
If my audio source was PCM .wav then what plugin should I use for the input audio file?

Change NicAC3Source() to WavSource().

JackReacher said:
Why do you use the ConverttoRGB() function? I noticed that if you output uncompressed AVI then it is RGB. Is that a good thing if you're dealing with yuv footage in premiere and also if you want to match color grading?

It's always better to control the conversion to RGB by doing it in AviSynth.  VirtualDub is notorious for mishandling its input under certain circusmtances, so always converting in AviSynth removes any chance of this happening.  Look at this post to help you render the AVI. 

Converting to RGB and expanding the luma range (converting to "PC levels" or what Sony calls "computer RGB") is the best way of avoiding levels issues.  I'd do the same for your HD source and any other source material.  It's important to render a lossless AVI in the same color-space after editing and then convert back to YUV properly in AviSynth.  Check out my guides for further information on this.

If you want to keep it as YUV, then omit the call to ConverttoRGB().  You can do this if you know how to use scopes to handle your levels in Premiere and understand how your chosen codec is handled in YUV.  I cannot advise you on this, because I don't use Premiere.
 

JackReacher

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I don't quite understand why I should still use PGCDemux when DGIndex can also demux the video and audio? Do they not perform the same function?

I will check out your guides concerning color space. Thank you.

If I may ask, what do you use for editing ? Sony Vegas?
 

Captain Khajiit

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JackReacher said:
I don't quite understand why I should still use PGCDemux when DGIndex can also demux the video and audio? Do they not perform the same function?

DGIndex can demux and index, but PGCDemux is a superior demuxer.

If I may ask, what do you use for editing ? Sony Vegas?

I am one of a select group of psychos that uses AviSynth for the whole editing process. :p
 

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Not to derail the thread further but I don't see anything wrong with using DVDShrink for ripping (and only ripping), provided that compression is set to "none."
 

JackReacher

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Okay understood thanks.

I am one of a select group of psychos that uses AviSynth for the whole editing process. :p

How do you preview your work in progress? :O
 

Captain Khajiit

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DVDShrink has not been updated since 2004.  Like DVD Decrypter, it shouldn't be used to rip modern discs.  If people want to continue to use outdated tools when (superior) up-to-date rippers exist, they are welcome to do so.

JackReacher said:
How do you preview your work in progress? :

I use VirtualDub. :D
 

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Captain Khajiit said:
DVDShrink has not been updated since 2004.  Like DVD Decrypter, it shouldn't be used to rip modern discs.  If people want to continue to use outdated tools when (superior) up-to-date rippers exist, they are welcome to do so.

Putting aside the fact that most of what I'm ripping are not exactly modern discs, what would you recommend that is free and can rip a specific portion of a disc?
 

Captain Khajiit

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I wouldn't recommend ripping a specific portion of a disc.  I'd recommend ripping the whole disc and then trimming out the needed portion.
 

JackReacher

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Captain Khajiit said:
I use VirtualDub. :D

Hmm. Interesting. I suppose I could try that for my project.

My project is a typical extended edit where you splice deleted DVD scenes with BluRay footage. So it just needs trimming/appending, resizing and matching color grading. Do you have any project code I can study?

One of the reasons I resorted to Premiere was because the DVD was stereo. I would match the L and R of the DVD with that of the BluRay's surround mix. So only 2 channels should be playing during the DVD parts. Also to keep the audio a multichannel wav so I can create DTS HD mix with the DTS Master Suite at the end. How would you deal with the audio?

I know I'm asking a lot, I think AviSynth would be so much more efficient. 

Thanks again
 

Captain Khajiit

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JackReacher said:
Do you have any project code I can study?

I shared my basic workflow with theslime.  Try reading this page of one of my threads from post#52 onwards.  Some people use AVSPMod, which is the closest thing that AviSynth has to a GUI and can also be used for previewing.  There's no reason not to use it really.  I stick to Notepad and VirtualDub simply because I'm old and cantankerous and like doing things the hard way.

JackReacher said:
One of the reasons I resorted to Premiere was because the DVD was stereo. I would match the L and R of the DVD with that of the BluRay's surround mix. So only 2 channels should be playing during the DVD parts. Also to keep the audio a multichannel wav so I can create DTS HD mix with the DTS Master Suite at the end. How would you deal with the audio?

Upmix the 2.0 to 5.1.  You can do this with BeHappy.  It uses AviSynth under the hood, so if you become more confident with scripting, you can build the upmixing into your script and skip BeHappy altogether.  You'll keep your HD audio – no question of it.
 

ThrowgnCpr

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Captain Khajiit said:
Some people use AVSPMod, which is the closest thing that AviSynth has to a GUI and can also be used for previewing.  There's no reason not to use it really.  I stick to Notepad and VirtualDub simply because I'm old and cantankerous and like doing things the hard way.

I would probably fall into the cantankerous category too, but I think AVSPMod is a great tool for previewing scripts. :)
 
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