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A Game of Thrones (SPOILER EDITION)
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TM2YC said:
Well it is not like the Night King...
...was stabbed with any old knife. It was a dagger made of Valryian Steel, which is one of the very few substances, along with dragon glass, able to kill the White Walkers. And it is not like it was an easy kill, hundreds died... not even dragon fire couldn't stop him!
Also, this particular knife has been moving from character to character since season one, so it was a weapon of destiny. So in terms of classic fantasy tropes, I thought this arc conclusion was true to the genre and very satisfying.
Plus, for me, the Night King and his undead army, were just a misdirection....
Also, this particular knife has been moving from character to character since season one, so it was a weapon of destiny. So in terms of classic fantasy tropes, I thought this arc conclusion was true to the genre and very satisfying.
Plus, for me, the Night King and his undead army, were just a misdirection....
....In the end, the name of the show is Game of Thrones, and it is all about who will sit on the Iron Throne at the end.
ImperialFighter
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I was late to the whole GOT party, and only started on the first season early last year. Luckily for me, I've eventually managed to work my way through the entire show just in time for the final 2 episodes shortly. While it may not be to everyone's taste, I've found it a hugely entertaining, if twisted and brutal journey along the way.
Some great characters and acting, along with a very cinematic feel in places, have made this a very satisfying watch for me overall. I only wish that a limited theatrical release on the big screen had been organised for the conclusion of it's epic storyline, as I'd defiinitely have gone along to that.
(and yes, I never once skipped it's majestic opening intro. credits/main theme for any episode, as it would have seemed rude to do so )
Some great characters and acting, along with a very cinematic feel in places, have made this a very satisfying watch for me overall. I only wish that a limited theatrical release on the big screen had been organised for the conclusion of it's epic storyline, as I'd defiinitely have gone along to that.
(and yes, I never once skipped it's majestic opening intro. credits/main theme for any episode, as it would have seemed rude to do so
)
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bionicbob said:TM2YC said:
Well it is not like the Night King...
...was stabbed with any old knife. It was a dagger made of Valryian Steel, which is one of the very few substances, along with dragon glass, able to kill the White Walkers. And it is not like it was an easy kill, hundreds died... not even dragon fire couldn't stop him!
Also, this particular knife has been moving from character to character since season one, so it was a weapon of destiny. So in terms of classic fantasy tropes, I thought this arc conclusion was true to the genre and very satisfying.
Plus, for me, the Night King and his undead army, were just a misdirection....
....In the end, the name of the show is Game of Thrones, and it is all about who will sit on the Iron Throne at the end.
"misdirection" is definitely the word. I think the writers didn't have a clue how to wrap it up satisfactory, so staged an hour-long battle to precede the NK death, to make it feel like it had some grand meaning.
A massive, long and barely comprehensible (thanks to the pitch black cinematography and shaky cam/fast editing) battle that had no discernible plan or goal beyond fighting until everyone is dead, even though all involved knew for some time that Dragon Glass and Valryian Steel killed white walkers, which would be an obvious basis for a stratagem to anybody with half a brain. If the NK had had half a brain, he wouldn't have got anywhere near anyone armed with those blades. He could have easily been defeated by a random archer with a lucky shot from a DG arrowhead (which they never attempted to do).
They didn't even use Arya's face changing ability to outwit the NK in some way. That would have given it some spark of cleverness. e.g the NK gets close up on Bran to kill him by touch or something, thinking he is no physical threat and it's really Arya with the blade. The basic problem would still remain that the dreaded NK was as easy to kill as the weakest of his troops, or easier to kill than any of the human combatants (provided the blade is of the right make).
A massive, long and barely comprehensible (thanks to the pitch black cinematography and shaky cam/fast editing) battle that had no discernible plan or goal beyond fighting until everyone is dead, even though all involved knew for some time that Dragon Glass and Valryian Steel killed white walkers, which would be an obvious basis for a stratagem to anybody with half a brain. If the NK had had half a brain, he wouldn't have got anywhere near anyone armed with those blades. He could have easily been defeated by a random archer with a lucky shot from a DG arrowhead (which they never attempted to do).
They didn't even use Arya's face changing ability to outwit the NK in some way. That would have given it some spark of cleverness. e.g the NK gets close up on Bran to kill him by touch or something, thinking he is no physical threat and it's really Arya with the blade. The basic problem would still remain that the dreaded NK was as easy to kill as the weakest of his troops, or easier to kill than any of the human combatants (provided the blade is of the right make).
Zamros
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I can't stop thinking about the potential for a big fanedit of these last two seasons. There's probably a good movie or two's worth of good content in there to make a streamlined arc for these characters, not subject to the show's awkward pacing.
Moe_Syzlak
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The whole White Walker thing was by far the least interesting thing about the show. I’m glad they just got it over with.
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I'm surprised this thread died before it got to the perhaps the most controversial episode of the entire series...! I caught up late, as I've been trying not to watch any series that fans weren't happy with all the way through to the end. Been burned too many times by shows that never got a proper finale (Deadwood, Dollhouse, Angel, etc.) or that crapped the bed in later seasons (Battlestar Galactica, Lost, recently Legion). It was getting so hard to avoid spoilers for The Walking Dead and Game of Thrones that I finally just started watching them though, to my great thrill...and disappointment.
As someone who purposely reads the books later, I can say this wasn't unnecessarily confusing to me. The tease out for Theon and then finally the reveal(s) were a great bit of cruel drama. Even though I had no idea what the point was at the time, the payoff was in understanding how psychologically cruel Ramsey was. It was horribly wonderful.
geminigod said:
As someone who purposely reads the books later, I can say this wasn't unnecessarily confusing to me. The tease out for Theon and then finally the reveal(s) were a great bit of cruel drama. Even though I had no idea what the point was at the time, the payoff was in understanding how psychologically cruel Ramsey was. It was horribly wonderful.
TM2YC said:
I actually love this idea that Arya would be disguised, although the way it's portrayed in the show, I believe she has to go through a process of taking the face off of a dead person in order to turn it into a wearable face, right? So I don't think she would've been able to put on the face of a living person... It would've been more interesting than what they did with Bran, though. Which was essentially ...nothing.
I do think the idea that 'there's no plan except to fight until everyone is dead' is a mischaracterization, though. They have a planning scene where they explain that all the troop movements count for nothing unless they can lure the Night King down to the ground. The whole point of that battle and the choices they made about how to arrange it is to thin his numbers but give him a sense of security. There are several moments where Jon has to hang back and not help people, both on his dragon and off, in order to try to get to the Night King.
I'm sure you know that this is actually another trope, and not only of fantasy movies. The idea that there is a massive battle/heist/deception that all the characters you know and love will have some role in, but really it's all an elaborate distraction to accomplish one central thing. In this case, they try to subvert the trope, because everything seems to have been leading towards the stereotypical Jon vs. Night King final battle, but in true GRRM fashion, he actually has a powerful lady rise up instead. I think the show actually did a pretty decent (not flawless) execution of what GRRM's bullet points probably said.
For me, the execution failed with Dany. I actually had a really hard time buying her romance with Jon the whole time, and an even harder time buying that he'd suddenly lose the ability to ...make his soldier salute... after he found out they share 25% of their DNA. Come on. In medieval cultures all around the world, brothers and sisters used to marry, much less 1st cousins or more distant. And we've seen Dany deal with having to separate from everyone she loved before. But now since she can't get Jon's big, magical ...direwolf...she snaps and decides to just murder everyone? I mean, soldiers, fine. Her enemies, okay. The men of Westeros, I could see it. But fireballing women and children? It seems horribly mishandled. I can only assume that the broad strokes come from GRRM, but the execution was heartily unconvincing.
Anyone else feel that this series lost the plot (literally and figuratively) in the final episodes?
I do think the idea that 'there's no plan except to fight until everyone is dead' is a mischaracterization, though. They have a planning scene where they explain that all the troop movements count for nothing unless they can lure the Night King down to the ground. The whole point of that battle and the choices they made about how to arrange it is to thin his numbers but give him a sense of security. There are several moments where Jon has to hang back and not help people, both on his dragon and off, in order to try to get to the Night King.
I'm sure you know that this is actually another trope, and not only of fantasy movies. The idea that there is a massive battle/heist/deception that all the characters you know and love will have some role in, but really it's all an elaborate distraction to accomplish one central thing. In this case, they try to subvert the trope, because everything seems to have been leading towards the stereotypical Jon vs. Night King final battle, but in true GRRM fashion, he actually has a powerful lady rise up instead. I think the show actually did a pretty decent (not flawless) execution of what GRRM's bullet points probably said.
For me, the execution failed with Dany. I actually had a really hard time buying her romance with Jon the whole time, and an even harder time buying that he'd suddenly lose the ability to ...make his soldier salute... after he found out they share 25% of their DNA. Come on. In medieval cultures all around the world, brothers and sisters used to marry, much less 1st cousins or more distant. And we've seen Dany deal with having to separate from everyone she loved before. But now since she can't get Jon's big, magical ...direwolf...she snaps and decides to just murder everyone? I mean, soldiers, fine. Her enemies, okay. The men of Westeros, I could see it. But fireballing women and children? It seems horribly mishandled. I can only assume that the broad strokes come from GRRM, but the execution was heartily unconvincing.
Anyone else feel that this series lost the plot (literally and figuratively) in the final episodes?