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SW - Star Wars

Moe_Syzlak

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wilhelm scream said:
Moe_Syzlak said:

I don't get it.

It’s not directed at you, but rather the fan base as a whole (or at least the ones complaining about the Disney/Lucas deal as outlined by Iger). I’m not defending the sequel trilogy movies. I haven’t particularly liked them. But people are complaining themselves in circles. For decades people screamed things like “George Lucas ruined my childhood.” There are even movies like The People Vs. George Lucas. Now, people are upset because Disney didn’t give Lucas creative control. Further, the small amount of details we have suggests Lucas’s ideas would’ve been things the fans would’ve hated (i.e. midichlorians, etc.) Further further, the movie most fans liked more was the one Lucas liked least in that it was a rehash. I don’t disagree with that, but fans mostly loved TFA when it came out. The movie that much more closely follows Lucas’s idea, TLJ, fans mostly hated. So what, do they want a trilogy more like TLJ only with midichlorians!? Or are they just upset that George got his feelings hurt? Because if so, I’m guessing many of those same people were pretty vocal detractors of Lucas in the PT days. I’m sure Lucas will be just fine with his billions of dollars. So, in closing, “I’m sick of you people. You’re nothing but a pack of fickle mush heads.”
 

TM2YC

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Did George need to sell SW? No. Was he pressured into selling SW? No. Was anybody expecting him to sell off SW? No. I'm sure it was an emotional time handing over the reins but it was his choice, his idea and nobody's fault but his.

Also this part I noticed...

Among the last things we negotiated before the deal closed was a non-disparagement clause.

...which George almost immediately violated and as far as I know, Disney have not.
 

Jrzag42

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I feel like already knew most of this. It's also worth noting that George has plenty of involvement with episode 9 supposedly.
I'm a rare fan of the prequels, and I'm sure I'd enjoy George's sequel trilogy, but in the end I don't care much.

For what it's worth, Solo is my favorite product of Disney Star Wars thus far.
 

addiesin

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I just think the amount of vitriol that comes from current-gen haters is counterproductive and silly. They will not go away though so in the very near future I think the inevitable direction this will take, from the perspective of Disney, is as follows.
(A movie is made)
"You don't like it because it's too much of the same? Ok, we'll make more, and they will be different."
(Another movie is made)
"You don't like the specific kind of differences we chose? Ok, we won't make more. This kind of publicity is bad for our brand."
(Twenty years pass, full of Marvel movies but empty of Star Wars, then an announcement is made)
"Hey we hard-rebooted it, presenting "A Star War", coming Christmas 2040, with Seth Rogen as the Dark Father and James Franco as Obi Kenobi. This time there are two Death Stars in one!"

I'm a superhero movie person, not really a Star Wars movie person. If they stopped, I wouldn't mind. But I think SW fans would. I think the reaction has been really overblown, and its effects will not be helpful to the franchise overall.
 

Moe_Syzlak

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addiesin said:
I just think the amount of vitriol that comes from current-gen haters is counterproductive and silly. They will not go away though so in the very near future I think the inevitable direction this will take, from the perspective of Disney, is as follows.
(A movie is made)
"You don't like it because it's too much of the same? Ok, we'll make more, and they will be different."
(Another movie is made)
"You don't like the specific kind of differences we chose? Ok, we won't make more. This kind of publicity is bad for our brand."
(Twenty years pass, full of Marvel movies but empty of Star Wars, then an announcement is made)
"Hey we hard-rebooted it, presenting "A Star War", coming Christmas 2040, with Seth Rogen as the Dark Father and James Franco as Obi Kenobi. This time there are two Death Stars in one!"

I'm a superhero movie person, not really a Star Wars movie person. If they stopped, I wouldn't mind. But I think SW fans would. I think the reaction has been really overblown, and its effects will not be helpful to the franchise overall.

I know a band that is very successful and have a rabid fan base. I actually knew them way before they were famous and my band used to play the same circuit back in the 80s. Contrary to popular belief, this band’s fans can be incredibly critical of the band they purport to love. I see a lot of similarities between their fan base and the Star Wars fan base. But the band has a very healthy attitude about it. They basically say it’s great to have created something that inspires so much passion. People aren’t going to like everything but at least they care enough to be passionate in their dislike. But they have the attitude that they are going to just keep doing what they love and try to do the best possible work they can. Listening to and taking creative cues from the fan base is the worst thing you can do. I’d imagine the Star Wars creatives feel very much the same way. At least I hope they do.
 

TM2YC

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Moe_Syzlak said:
addiesin said:
I just think the amount of vitriol that comes from current-gen haters is counterproductive and silly. They will not go away though so in the very near future I think the inevitable direction this will take, from the perspective of Disney, is as follows.
(A movie is made)
"You don't like it because it's too much of the same? Ok, we'll make more, and they will be different."
(Another movie is made)
"You don't like the specific kind of differences we chose? Ok, we won't make more. This kind of publicity is bad for our brand."
(Twenty years pass, full of Marvel movies but empty of Star Wars, then an announcement is made)
"Hey we hard-rebooted it, presenting "A Star War", coming Christmas 2040, with Seth Rogen as the Dark Father and James Franco as Obi Kenobi. This time there are two Death Stars in one!"

I'm a superhero movie person, not really a Star Wars movie person. If they stopped, I wouldn't mind. But I think SW fans would. I think the reaction has been really overblown, and its effects will not be helpful to the franchise overall.

I know a band that is very successful and have a rabid fan base. I actually knew them way before they were famous and my band used to play the same circuit back in the 80s. Contrary to popular belief, this band’s fans can be incredibly critical of the band they purport to love. I see a lot of similarities between their fan base and the Star Wars fan base. But the band has a very healthy attitude about it. They basically say it’s great to have created something that inspires so much passion. People aren’t going to like everything but at least they care enough to be passionate in their dislike. But they have the attitude that they are going to just keep doing what they love and try to do the best possible work they can. Listening to and taking creative cues from the fan base is the worst thing you can do. I’d imagine the Star Wars creatives feel very much the same way. At least I hope they do.

 
6f5f5129e66545d5b86d1889478b4fc1.jpg


?
 

Jrzag42

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Aw man, I wish I had Jizz-Wailing friends!
 

Moe_Syzlak

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I was reminded of this today and thought I’d share. Those that compare the original Star Wars and say it is objectively bad in the same ways as the prequels and we just look at that movie through rose colored glasses need to remember the perspective. The quality of movies of that sort was abysmal at the time. The prequel trilogy came at time when genre films were held to a higher standard. Do some of the effects of the original Star Wars look dodgy now? Sure. Are there plot holes? Sure. Are there reams of terrible dialogue? Sure. Is there bad acting? Sure. But look at one of Star Wars’s contemporaries. This came out after Star Wars.

 

addiesin

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Moe_Syzlak said:
I was reminded of this today and thought I’d share. Those that compare the original Star Wars and say it is objectively bad in the same ways as the prequels and we just look at that movie through rose colored glasses need to remember the perspective. The quality of movies of that sort was abysmal at the time. The prequel trilogy came at time when genre films were held to a higher standard. Do some of the effects of the original Star Wars look dodgy now? Sure. Are there plot holes? Sure. Are there reams of terrible dialogue? Sure. Is there bad acting? Sure. But look at one of Star Wars’s contemporaries. This came out after Star Wars.

[video]

Totally agree. Another fun bad one to look at that tried to cash in on Star Wars similarities is the Flash Gordon movie from 1980.
 

hbenthow

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TM2YC said:
Did George need to sell SW? No. Was he pressured into selling SW? No. Was anybody expecting him to sell off SW?

The question isn't whether he was forced or pressured, but whether he was misled. Some of Iger's actions (especially buying the sequel trilogy outlines despite no desire to actually use them) may have been intended to mislead Lucas into thinking that he would have more creative control than Iger was actually prepared to give him. Whether intentionally or accidentally, those decisions did indeed have the effect of causing Lucas to not realize the full ramifications of the deal until it was too late.
 
No. I'm sure it was an emotional time handing over the reins but it was his choice, his idea and nobody's fault but his.

While it may have ultimately been his choice in the end, it was't originally his idea. He had no initial desire to sell Star War. Bob Iger was the one who initially approached him and convinced him to sell. That is one of Iger's specialties: approaching the owners of already successful companies who have no need or desire to sell (George Lucas, Marvel's Ike Perlmutter, etc) and convincing them to sell anyway. This is evident in multiple parts of Iger's memoir.
 

Moe_Syzlak

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hbenthow said:
TM2YC said:
Did George need to sell SW? No. Was he pressured into selling SW? No. Was anybody expecting him to sell off SW?

The question isn't whether he was forced or pressured, but whether he was misled. Some of Iger's actions (especially buying the sequel trilogy outlines despite no desire to actually use them) may have been intended to mislead Lucas into thinking that he would have more creative control than Iger was actually prepared to give him. Whether intentionally or accidentally, those decisions did indeed have the effect of causing Lucas to not realize the full ramifications of the deal until it was too late.
 
No. I'm sure it was an emotional time handing over the reins but it was his choice, his idea and nobody's fault but his.

While it may have ultimately been his choice in the end, it was't originally his idea. He had no initial desire to sell Star War. Bob Iger was the one who initially approached him and convinced him to sell. That is one of Iger's specialties: approaching the owners of already successful companies who have no need or desire to sell (George Lucas, Marvel's Ike Perlmutter, etc) and convincing them to sell anyway. This is evident in multiple parts of Iger's memoir.

Even if we accept this premise, what does that mean? It means that Iger was a better businessman than Lucas. What does that mean to the fans? Seriously, I have no idea why they might be upset that George Lucas has $4B plus a sh!t-ton of Disney stock and hurt feelings. Are they upset because of that or because they think Lucas would’ve made better movies? Because if it’s the latter I’m going to call bullsh!t based on listening to the same venom that’s been directed at Disney for the past four or so years unleashed on Lucas himself for the 15 or so years before that.
 

TM2YC

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Moe_Syzlak said:
the same venom that’s been directed at Disney for the past four or so years unleashed on Lucas himself for the 15 or so years before that.

A difference between the two is that Disney are now really trying to please (with variable levels of success and failure) an angry, divided fanbase because Lucas spent those years going out of his way to not please them, to divide them and to antagonize them.
 

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Iger wanted to unite the fans with a Star Wars "best off" movie (episode 7).
It was a smart move. It kinda worked.
(Making Lucas stories about the whills and the midicholrians after the Prequels... i don't think so...)

THEN Iger and Kennedy thought it was time to surprise the fans with new things.
It was a smart move...  on paper (you can't be sure of something before doing it anyway)
Even if I like TLJ, it was a divisive movie. 
The main problem of the Sequel Trilogy is that it seams to have been made without a clear plan and in a bit of a rush. (and if it's not the case then it feels like that).

On the other hand: with George's Sequels at least there would have been a clean plan. Even if it would have alienated fans even more right away, IMO! (and Disney did not want to take the risk, rightfully so)
There is also to take in consideration the passing of Carrie Fisher that changed the actual storyline and would have surely also changed Lucas story anyway...
 

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I wanted to add to my previous comment that even if the Sequels seams to have been made without a clear plan, I also feel that the Prequels had a weird structure.

-Spending a full first movie introducing some characters and things that are not developed in the second one.
-Having a second episode that lots of fans don't like...
-Having all the intersting story plots shown in the last movie... wait...
depending on how episode 9 will be, it's a bit the same thing, don't you think?
 

Moe_Syzlak

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TMBTM said:
I wanted to add to my previous comment that even if the Sequels seams to have been made without a clear plan, I also feel that the Prequels had a weird structure.

-Spending a full first movie introducing some characters and things that are not developed in the second one.
-Having a second episode that lots of fans don't like...
-Having all the intersting story plots shown in the last movie... wait...
depending on how episode 9 will be, it's a bit the same thing, don't you think?

Episode 9 could be The Room bad and still the Sequel Trilogy will be massively better than the Prequel Trilogy, and I haven’t even particularly liked Episodes 7 & 8.
 

Collipso

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TMBTM said:
I wanted to add to my previous comment that even if the Sequels seams to have been made without a clear plan, I also feel that the Prequels had a weird structure.

-Spending a full first movie introducing some characters and things that are not developed in the second one.
-Having a second episode that lots of fans don't like...
-Having all the intersting story plots shown in the last movie... wait...
depending on how episode 9 will be, it's a bit the same thing, don't you think?
the PT's structure wasn't going to be this weird. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were supposed to be just one character - Obi-Wan - and Anakin was going to be a young adult. the reason for the changes:
- Lucas realized that he wasn't ever showing how a regular Master/Padawan relationship was supposed to be, so the audience would never see how different and unique Obi-Wan's relationship to Anakin was. in order to do that he made Obi-Wan the Padawan, and gave him a master.
- he also realized that there was an element lacking: what would emotionally attach Anakin to Tattooine so much to make him leaving such a heartbreaking moment? so he chose to make him a kid and have it be leaving his mom.

Lucas was also making stuff up on the spot during the PT, but since it was a one man effort it was less... heterogeneous, in a way. IMO, for the issues above, he could've just ignored the first issue, and he could've made Anakin be a young adult/teen that has to take care of his little brother, Owen. but anyways, he was under a lot of pressure at the time, and like it's been said infinite times, he was alone in making them.

but that made Episode I have to be set many years before the actual story of the PT, which kind of screwed Lucas' plans big time and made him have to condense the entire story onto two movies.

i also think it's really interesting how AotC is regarded as the worst nowadays. growing up, me and all my friends and basically everyone I knew agreed that TPM was by far the worst, AotC was good and RotS fantastic. i still hold that opinion (though TFA is rock botttom in my ranking), and TLJ is in between AotC and TPM to me.

--

concerning the discussion about the book, i think that Lucas deeply regrets the sale. he's still that 1970s revolutionary, and he must be incredibly mad at himself for selling his company - and therefore his IPs. and i don't mean that from a business or money standpoint - i don't think he cares about those much anymore - i mean from a creator of art standpoint. from a writer/director standpoint. they were his movies, it was his universe, and now they're somehow not anymore? someone else "owns" them? i mean that sounds incredibly... insane to me. it might be how stuff is legally but i really don't see it that way, and i don't think Lucas does either. and we seem to share the opinion on TFA, so when he was displeased with what was done to his story he must've really started voicing his unhappiness.
 

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Collipso said:
concerning the discussion about the book, i think that Lucas deeply regrets the sale. he's still that 1970s revolutionary, and he must be incredibly mad at himself for selling his company - and therefore his IPs. and i don't mean that from a business or money standpoint - i don't think he cares about those much anymore - i mean from a creator of art standpoint. from a writer/director standpoint. they were his movies, it was his universe, and now they're somehow not anymore? someone else "owns" them? i mean that sounds incredibly... insane to me. it might be how stuff is legally but i really don't see it that way, and i don't think Lucas does either. and we seem to share the opinion on TFA, so when he was displeased with what was done to his story he must've really started voicing his unhappiness.

Perhaps he should've let his IPs go into the public domain, then. He wouldn't own SW anymore, but neither would anybody else.

Fuck Disney, and fuck Lucas.
 
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