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SW - Star Wars

Moe_Syzlak

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"[font=Raleway, sans-serif]Anakin's turn to the dark side should have been set up from his actions in episode 1. Instead he's a wholesome, innocent child. "[/font]

[font=Raleway, sans-serif]It certainly would've been better had Anakin been more like the kid in Looper. It also would've more clearly underlined QGJ's recklessness. I always thought Anakin should've witnessed QGJ's death as well. One more recurring loss of those he cares about.  [/font]
 

DigModiFicaTion

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I think it would have been more convincing if Anakin was forced to kill a rogue jedi and then began to question why the Jedi went rogue. That Jedi could have discovered some supposed plot for the Jedi Council to remove the chancellor (something that could be revealed based on the Jedi Council feeling Sidious' presence over the first 2 movies, Sifo-Dyas?). Anakin and Obi-wan could have tried to discover Sifo-Dyas and it turn out to be Mace Windu or even Yoda. Obi wan would see the truth in it, but Anakin would become enraged and seeds of doubt, fear, and anger would grow. He'd have a reason to hate the Jedi. He'd have a reason to hate Obi-Wan. He'd have a reason to want to control those in power. It's the same idea, but with more reasoning behind it.

I just would have liked to see Anakin arrive at his conclusions without the blatant misguiding of Palpatine.
 

Masirimso17

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Alright guys, you're explaining how it can be better, not why on its own Anakin's fall fails. I already explained why I feel it is believable, and replied to what Frink wrote, though I have to admit the last two points Frink wrote are very true, I am keeping them in mind...

Let's examine what's presented to us and if it works on its own, not compared to an alternative. By the way what I write below is my thought process so if you encounter wonderings or changing of opinions, you know why.

The Jedi of this era are hypocritical, reckless and corrupt beaurocrates. Their code is that they forbid love, passion, attachment, fear, anger, hate... Basically emotions people feel all the time. But they bend their own code which is not even perfect in the first place. The only exception to this rule is Qui-Gon Jinn. He is a compassionate, soft, caring, ideal father figure. He is exactly what a Jedi should be. So no Moe, he is not reckless, whatever made you think that? Contrast that to Mace Windu, who is exactly what the Jedi are at that moment: Careless, corrupt hypocrites, who act angry and hateful from time to time.

Anakin was presented to us in The Phantom Menace as a young, innocent child, simply because GL wanted to convey Anakin's fear of losing his mother; and this does set up Anakin's fall to the Dark Side. In fact, the council sensing he has this fear of loss, and Yoda explaining how this leads to the Dark Side (Fear -> Anger -> Hate -> Suffering), sets up Anakin's fall throughout the trilogy. 

This is significant because the supposed protectors of the galaxy never even bother to free his mother. So when the visions of her mother kick in, and Anakin rushes to save her but fails, he begins his anger and hate, towards both the Tusken Raiders and the Jedi. This is one of the many things that Anakin's fear of loss causes.

Another factor that is important with Anakin's fall is that he is held up with super high standards (i.e. The Chosen One prophecy). Palpatine keeps saying he'll be the most powerful Jedi in existance. All this is there to get Anakin's arrogance up to maximum level.

I brought up Qui-Gon Jinn earlier because he was the perfect person to train Anakin. He would have taught him to control his emotions rather than surpress them, and also stay humble and compassionate, caring. He would have been much better than Obi-Wan, who is inexperienced and conservative. Unfortunately, Qui-Gon dies, still believing in Anakin, and he is stuck with Obi-Wan. The reason for the fights Anakin and Obi-Wan have in AotC is precisely because Anakin becomes arrogant. It is Obi-Wan's failing that he is not a humble, compassionate guardian. Also Palpatine constantly holding Anakin to a high standart, and exposing the corrupt views of the Jedi makes Anakin's hate for them and his own arrogance grow.

Anakin's fear of loss comes back bigger than ever when he recieves a vision regarding Padme dying in childbirth. He does not want her to die in a similar way. That, his increasing arrogance and his hate for the Jedi Council, all combined, are the reasons and motivations for Anakin to fall to the Dark Side. Which means it was time for Palpatine's revelations. He reveals that he knows of a power to save people from dying, and later that he is a Sith Lord, knows of his wife, and has the knowledge to save Padme. So after Anakin reports Palpatine to Mace Windu, waiting in the Council chambers, he returns and after a moral dillema, kills Mace Windu (then has a shock), and then pledges himself to Palpatine. But that's not the end of it. His arrogance is at maximum level, so he plans to overthrow Palpatine, and plans to rule the galaxy with Padme and the children. Of course it doesn't happen, Obi-Wan comes, they fight, Anakin *suffers*.

This is the summary of what happened to Anakin. This progression is natural, and all that has happened relates to each other. Anakin's fear of loss, mistrust for the Jedi and his arrogance, COMBINED, is what causes Anakin to fall. If any one of them were gone, Anakin would not have fell. If he didn't want to save Padme, he wouldn't fully embrace the Dark Side, and would probably go grey. If Palpatine didn't cause him the mistrust for the Jedi, again Anakin wouldn't embrace the Dark Side. He wouldn't notice the council's corruption and side with the Jedi when the time was right.

Now then, let's examine what has been said:

Palpatine telling Anakin that he doesn't know how to save Padme basically would render Anakin's fall completely pointless. But he was stupid so he didn't care. Is this movie-breaking? It looks like if his motivation to save Padme is destroyed the whole thing crumbles. And he is too stupid not to notice Palpatine lied to him. And yes, him killing the Younglings is too rushed and forced. Maybe the execution isn't as great as it is. But only these. The motivations and actual fall to the Dark Side, I feel are great. The Jedi thing should have been focused on a moral side than a political side though, I agree. And it's after Anakin falls that he starts to do forced things. All it would take would be to edit out Palpatine saying "...if we work together blah blah..." and killing children, and it would be fixed. But does these make the execution poor?

You know KotOR II did the morality/complexity of the Jedi much, much better.
 

TV's Frink

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Masirimso17 said:
Yes, I love the idea of the prequels. Though I do agree that the execution was very poor.

This is exactly what makes them bad movies.

It's perfectly fine to like bad movies.  But that doesn't make them not-bad.
 

TV's Frink

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ThrowgnCpr said:
Masirimso17 said:
can someone please explain to me in detail why Anakin's fall, in execution, fails?

He never gets the high ground.

Goddamn this made me laugh hard.
 

Moe_Syzlak

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Masi, honestly, I didn't even read your post. I might later. What are you wanting to hear!? It doesn't work. What else is there to say? We are providing ways in which it might have worked. It's not just a few disgruntled fans that think his fall simply wasn't convincing; it's pretty much everyone (or at least 99.9%). And the sentiment isn't that it didn't almost not sort of fail; it failed laughably badly. What didn't work? EVERY DAMNED THING!!!
 

Zamros

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Anakin's Character Progression:

Super Talented Space Jesus that knows only of good and kindness -> Angsty Teenager that makes women so uncomfortable they fall in love with him -> Jedi Knight and General of a Clone Batallion, actual adult and likeable human being -> Genocidial Child-killing Space Nazi

with zero actual development in between. That's not an arc. That's a side on view of the Himalayas.
 

Masirimso17

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TVs Frink said:
Masirimso17 said:
Yes, I love the idea of the prequels. Though I do agree that the execution was very poor.

This is exactly what makes them bad movies.

It's perfectly fine to like bad movies.  But that doesn't make them not-bad.

I still think Revenge of the Sith is not bad, just not amazing either. And I still think the characters and overall story of the Prequels is good, for the most part.

It's just the poor dialogue, direction and baffling decisions that keep them from being good.
 

Moe_Syzlak

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Masirimso17 said:
TVs Frink said:
Masirimso17 said:
Yes, I love the idea of the prequels. Though I do agree that the execution was very poor.

This is exactly what makes them bad movies.

It's perfectly fine to like bad movies.  But that doesn't make them not-bad.

I still think Revenge of the Sith is not bad, just not amazing either. And I still think the characters and overall story of the Prequels is good, for the most part.

It's just the poor dialogue, direction and baffling decisions that keep them from being good.

Lol. But that's SOOO much of what makes a movie good.
 

Moe_Syzlak

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Honestly, what I think you're trying to say is that there is a seed of a story idea in there somewhere that may have worked. It didn't though due to a poor screenplay, poor direction, poor execution, poor acting, etc. etc.
 

Masirimso17

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Moe_Syzlak said:
I still think Revenge of the Sith is not bad, just not amazing either. And I still think the characters and overall story of the Prequels is good, for the most part.

It's just the poor dialogue, direction and baffling decisions that keep them from being good.

Lol. But that's SOOO much of what makes a movie good.

I agree, The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones are legit bad. But what I mentioned ln bold, I find significantly less of those in Revenge of the Sith.

Sorry guys, I just don't think Anakin's fall was badly executed. Most other things were, but not this. And this is a big one.
 

Zamros

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Yeah man. If you take away the acting... the direction... the dialogue.... the editing... the plot construction.... you actually have some pretty decent movie! When you ignore the fact that Anakin doesn't develop as a character in the way writers have been developing characters for millenia, he's actually very complex and VERY well developed!

Movies are just supposed to be fun you guys. Don't focus on the details! Why's everyone ragging on Suicide Squad for its editing? That's only like the 2nd thing you have to do to make a movie! Stop nitpicking guuuuuys gooooood

Anakin's Fall:

Galactic Hero -> Disgruntled and Unappreciated Body Guard -> Murderer of Children -> "FROM MY POINT OF VIEW THE JEDI ARE EVIL!"
 

Zamros

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Anakin's Fall:

Galactic Hero -> Disgruntled and Unappreciated Body Guard -> Murderer of Children -> "FROM MY POINT OF VIEW THE JEDI ARE EVIL!"
 

TV's Frink

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Zamros said:
Anakin's Character Progression:

Super Talented Space Jesus that knows only of good and kindness -> Angsty Teenager that makes women so uncomfortable they fall in love with him -> Jedi Knight and General of a Clone Batallion, actual adult and likeable human being -> Genocidial Child-killing Space Nazi

with zero actual development in between. That's not an arch. That's a side on view of the Himalayas.

I think you meant "arc."
 

Zamros

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TVs Frink said:
I think you meant "arc."

Nope
220px-Arch_illustration.svg.png
 

DigModiFicaTion

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Masirimso17 said:
I still think Revenge of the Sith is not bad, just not amazing either. And I still think the characters and overall story of the Prequels is good, for the most part.

It's just the poor dialogue, direction and baffling decisions that keep them from being good.

That's the issue friend. You think one thing, and many others think something completely opposite. This is where my political comment came in. This is as heated as Dems and Repubs.

To illustrate my point:
I can't stand chocolate, but you can like it if you want. Just know that I'm not ever going to care for chocolate nor will I eat it if at all possible. Same thing goes for the prequels for many of us.
 

iridium_ionizer

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TVs Frink said:
I think EP III Anakin might be the worst of the (first) three.

Oh hey, Palpatine is a Sith.
I know, I'll kill Mace.
Oh wait, what have I done?!?!?
Mr. Sith lied to me about being able to save Padme?
Ah well, I'm gonna kill a bunch of kids now too.
I think this and Palpatine's bad facial makeup effects are what completely undercut the wonderful tension that was building up to that point in RotS. 

WARNING: FANWISHING REPLOTTING BELOW
They could have had Anakin be less aggressive in disarming Mace Windu - maybe he just grazes him and destroys (or makes him drop) Windu's lightsaber. Then Palpatine suprise attacks Windu and kills him. Anakin says, "what the hell, man?" and tries to capture Palpatine. But it is a brief standoff. During which Palpatine is talking to Anakin and making him feel like he is past the point of no return (which he isn't yet). Then Palpatine shows him a holo-vid of Anakin helping him kill Windu. 

Palpatine blackmails Anakin into stealing a holocron file (from the Jedi Temple). When there Anakin gets caught by a Jedi he already has a beef with. The angry Jedi says, "I am going to have to call this in to Master Windu. Master Windu is not answering his com. What did you do to him?" Then the angry Jedi attacks Anakin with his lightsaber, but Anakin wins the fight, but unintentionally (?) wins the fight by killing the angry Jedi. 

Anakin returns to Palpatine. Palpatine takes the holocron (which contains current locations of the Jedi) and shows Anakin that he deletes the blackmail holovid. Anakin leaves to the Jedi temple and maybe wants to come clean to them now that he has actually killed one of his own. Before he can explain himself, Anakin is arrested by the Jedi for killing the angry Jedi. Before they do anything about it, Order 66 happens and Jedi all around Anakin are blasted by a ton of firepower (not just a few troopers). Anakin is unscathed. 

Anakin goes back to say, "What the hell, Palpy?" This time he get he gets his ass handed to him (complete with vindictive Force lightning torture). And Palpatine asks, "Do you want to survive? Do you want Padme to survive?" Palpatine then gives him an assignment to bring the Empire to Tatooine. As he is preparing to leave with a legion of troopers he starts planning with Padme to escape and flee Palpatine's grasp and hide in the outer rim. But he doesn't tell her everything that has happened and it is clear that she is being watched by assassins / guards. Anakin doesn't even think there are any Jedi left, or that any would believe him at this point. 

Anakin completes his mission on Tatooine brutally. The slaves on cheer his name. Cue montage of him crushing the Separatists and consolidating the Empires power across the galaxy. Anakin is loving his victories and forgetting his desire to escape. Meanwhile, Padme is in secret contact with the budding rebellion. On his last assignment, Anakin is confronted by a Jedi that clearly thinks he is filled with the the dark side. "You're a monster!" Anakin cuts her down intentionally when she doesn't buy his excuses. 

Anakin returns to Coruscant. Anakin trains in with Palpatine. He uses dark side powers to interrogate political prisoners. He sees Padme and she complains of essentially being held under house arrest. Anakin tells her that she will soon have her freedom. She complains about Palpatine's rule. Anakin agrees and says he is working to bring Palpatine down from within. She says, "Couldn't you fight him with the Jedi?" He responds, "I am the last Jedi. At least we don't have to hide our love anymore."

Palpatine gives Anakin one last assignment, to kill the Rebellion cell on Coruscant. He delivers. Then he takes Padme away on a "honeymoon." They arrive at Mustafar. He shows her their new castle. She can go anywhere on the planet and she won't have to fear Anakin's enemies. Obi-wan arrives. Anakin is confronted by all of his deeds. Padme realizes that Anakin killed her friends in the Rebellion. "You're a monster." "I have brought peace to the galaxy." FIGHT. 
I know my revisionist plot wasn't too great, and it would might be tough to fit in into what is now Episode 3, but that's just what I thought up in an hour. And clearly Anakin's fall needed to more believably realized. More of a Breaking Bad series of changes, instead of a couple of "bad things" that he does and then goes back to being nice, until he goes too far and must kill children.  

DigModiFicaTion said:
I think it would have been more convincing if Anakin was forced to kill a rogue jedi and then began to question why the Jedi went rogue. 
DigModiFicaTion said:
I just would have liked to see Anakin arrive at his conclusions without the blatant misguiding of Palpatine.

addiesin said:
They could have shown Anakin's training through the years as a montage or series of scenes as he's handed off to train with different masters across the galaxy, and shown us why his compounded experiences eventually form his negative conclusion regarding the Jedi, as we see him go through ethically grey situations where he's not in charge and disagrees with the outcome. 

They could have done a lot of things. We're talking about multiple space Merlins, here, each with their own Excalibur. To make them boring and hypocritical, and then to say "that was the point" is to miss the point.
All good ideas. 

Masirimso17 said:
This is significant because the supposed protectors of the galaxy never even bother to free his mother. 
Seriously, why was this never brought up in AotC? Oh I know. They don't take Republic credits on Tatooine.  :p
 
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