• Most new users don't bother reading our rules. Here's the one that is ignored almost immediately upon signup: DO NOT ASK FOR FANEDIT LINKS PUBLICLY. First, read the FAQ. Seriously. What you want is there. You can also send a message to the editor. If that doesn't work THEN post in the Trade & Request forum. Anywhere else and it will be deleted and an infraction will be issued.
  • If this is your first time here please read our FAQ and Rules pages. They have some useful information that will get us all off on the right foot, especially our Own the Source rule. If you do not understand any of these rules send a private message to one of our staff for further details.
  • Please read our Rules & Guidelines

SW - Star Wars

Masirimso17

Well-known member
Cover Artist
Messages
2,137
Reaction score
236
Trophy Points
93
Moe_Syzlak said:
"I have to admit my trust in them [the Jedi] has been shaken." 

Despite it being one of the better scenes in the PT, what you're talking about is almost painfully spelled out in the opera scene.

I am quite aware of that. I'm just saying that a lot of people I saw missed it. I'm not saying, though, that no one who dislikes the Prequels got this.

Again, GL is not the best director nor dialogue writer.
 

addiesin

Well-known member
Messages
5,888
Reaction score
1,502
Trophy Points
163
Masirimso17 said:
Always the Jedi are said to be careless hypocritical monks in reviews... That was the point.

Possible. But in that case, the point was lame. 

What's wrong with arguing about films?
With these films? Nobody changes their mind, there's no new info or perspectives. 
It just goes in circles. 

Like Ring Theory. 

Which goes like so:
Look at me, I repeat myself, thus I'm a genius! 
Look at me, I repeat myself, thus I'm a genius!
 

TV's Frink

You Catch On Pretty Quick
Staff member
Donor
Faneditor
Messages
23,676
Reaction score
406
Trophy Points
193
I prefer

10 Look at me
20 I'm a genius
30 GOTO 10
 

Masirimso17

Well-known member
Cover Artist
Messages
2,137
Reaction score
236
Trophy Points
93
addiesin said:
Masirimso17 said:
Always the Jedi are said to be careless hypocritical monks in reviews... That was the point.

Possible. But in that case, the point was lame.

I disagree. It makes Anakin's character more interesting (sorry guys, I like him... in III), and especially makes Luke's outburst, realization and decision even more rewarding than it already was. In my opinion, this grey area which was not present in the OT (which was a simpler good vs evil story) enhances the story, and like I said it inspired Rian Johnson to do The Last Jedi the way he's doing.

I wonder if you guy are going to say, "it was really great how Luke realized the flaws of the Jedi order, how he decided to end it and finally bring true balance to the galaxy etc." when The Last Jedi comes out, raving about how great his development will be, while this point of the Jedi being hypocritical, corrupt and flawed is still present in the Prequels which you find "lame." Maybe it's the execution of it that makes you think it's lame, which is very understandable. And maybe I'll be wrong about The Last Jedi, and you'll be like Mark Hamill saying "I disagree with fundamentally everything about Luke's character". But I doubt it. We'll see though.

addiesin said:
What's wrong with arguing about films?

With these films? Nobody changes their mind, there's no new info or perspectives. 
It just goes in circles. 
Like Ring Theory. 

Which goes like so:
Look at me, I repeat myself, thus I'm a genius! 
Look at me, I repeat myself, thus I'm a genius!

Mostly no one. But I see what you mean. I don't want to annoy, tire or bother anyone, nor pick a fight here, I respect anyone and everyone and their opinions. I just love talking about Star Wars.
 

Zamros

Well-known member
Messages
1,219
Reaction score
3
Trophy Points
43
Masirimso17 said:
I just love talking about Star Wars.

gPRfID.gif
 

addiesin

Well-known member
Messages
5,888
Reaction score
1,502
Trophy Points
163
Masirimso17 said:
I disagree. It makes Anakin's character more interesting (sorry guys, I like him... in III), and especially makes Luke's outburst, realization and decision even more rewarding than it already was. In my opinion, this grey area which was not present in the OT (which was a simpler good vs evil story) enhances the story, and like I said it inspired Rian Johnson to do The Last Jedi the way he's doing.

In my opinion, it takes a group of characters who had potential to explore issues of real substance in a fictional setting, and relegates them to bureaucrats with no agency or mystique. I don't watch Star Wars for the bureaucracy. 

None of them seem to care about anything unless they're fighting, and even then they only care about taking down the enemy. The lines between good and evil, light and dark could have been explored. What are the powers of the light side and the dark side and what is different about them? If Jedi have no code against killing or violence, why not use force chokes, force lightning, etc? What's the difference between that and chopping someone in half with a lightsaber? None of these are brought up or even hinted on. 

Instead we get Anakin saying bluntly "From my point of view the jedi are evil". 

Imagine there was a version of Blade Runner, but every time the replicants appeared, they were explicitly, mustache-twirlingly, unquestionably evil and obviously walked and talked like robots, maybe like RoboCop; and Roy's tears in the rain speech in the end was replaced with "From my perspective, humans are the real robots. Now I die, a robot who has learned what it is to be human. Perhaps more human than even YOUUUUU!" It would remove the subtlety, the impact, the mystery, the tone, everything that was good about the movie. 

I wonder if you guy are going to say, "it was really great how Luke realized the flaws of the Jedi order, how he decided to end it and finally bring true balance to the galaxy etc." when The Last Jedi comes out, raving about how great his development will be, while this point of the Jedi being hypocritical, corrupt and flawed is still present in the Prequels which you find "lame." ... And maybe I'll be wrong about The Last Jedi, and you'll be like Mark Hamill saying "I disagree with fundamentally everything about Luke's character". But I doubt it. We'll see though.
I have no idea what The Last Jedi will be about. However, I think Luke realizing, after all he's seen (or more importantly: after all WE'VE SEEN him see) that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, would not only ring true and feel substantive, but also would be a logical progression for his character. He never knew the Jedi of old. He only knows what he's seen, which is a lot of death, especially in his own family. 

Maybe it's the execution of it that makes you think it's lame, which is very understandable.
No maybe. It's exactly this. 

What would have been more interesting is never seeing or hearing from (instead just hearing about) the Jedi council as a whole, and never seeing Yoda. They could have had a "Jedi planet" where anyone approaching gets mind-tricked into wanting to leave unless they are a Jedi. They could have had Mace Windu or other Jedi meet up with main characters by appearing mysteriously like spies that move in the shadows. They could have had little territories all spread out like a space version of feudal Japan instead of a space version of the DMV. They could have shown Anakin's training through the years as a montage or series of scenes as he's handed off to train with different masters across the galaxy, and shown us why his compounded experiences eventually form his negative conclusion regarding the Jedi, as we see him go through ethically grey situations where he's not in charge and disagrees with the outcome. 

They could have done a lot of things. We're talking about multiple space Merlins, here, each with their own Excalibur. To make them boring and hypocritical, and then to say "that was the point" is to miss the point.
 

DigModiFicaTion

DᴉმWoqᴉԷᴉcɑꓕᴉou
Staff member
Faneditor
Messages
8,607
Reaction score
3,505
Trophy Points
168
Wow, thought I walked into the politics thread with all the sided arguments.

I suppose the analogy fits. The Sith use Red lightsabers and the Jedi use Blue, Green, and Purple.....hmmm :rolleyes:
 

Moe_Syzlak

Well-known member
Messages
3,450
Reaction score
1,161
Trophy Points
118
I'm still not even sure what's being argued here. Of course the execution matters. Yes, the PT shows more grey area than the OT did. So what? So did R1, only that film actually executed it well. I just think it's silly to argue that somehow that point was missed. It wasn't.  The movies just weren't very good. Period.
 

TV's Frink

You Catch On Pretty Quick
Staff member
Donor
Faneditor
Messages
23,676
Reaction score
406
Trophy Points
193
Masirimso17 said:
addiesin said:
Masirimso17 said:
Always the Jedi are said to be careless hypocritical monks in reviews... That was the point.

Possible. But in that case, the point was lame.

I disagree. It makes Anakin's character more interesting (sorry guys, I like him... in III)


I think EP III Anakin might be the worst of the (first) three.

Oh hey, Palpatine is a Sith.
I know, I'll kill Mace.
Oh wait, what have I done?!?!?
Mr. Sith lied to me about being able to save Padme?
Ah well, I'm gonna kill a bunch of kids now too.
 

addiesin

Well-known member
Messages
5,888
Reaction score
1,502
Trophy Points
163
DigModiFicaTion said:
Wow, thought I walked into the politics thread with all the sided arguments.

Masi wants to discuss more in depth, so I went more in depth. I know I'm very opinionated and often one-sided but I'm still open to discussion as long as it's not going too circular.
 

DigModiFicaTion

DᴉმWoqᴉԷᴉcɑꓕᴉou
Staff member
Faneditor
Messages
8,607
Reaction score
3,505
Trophy Points
168
It was more in general and to lighten the mood. I didn't mean it to target anyone. My apologies.
 

Masirimso17

Well-known member
Cover Artist
Messages
2,137
Reaction score
236
Trophy Points
93
addiesin said:
In my opinion, it takes a group of characters who had potential to explore issues of real substance in a fictional setting, and relegates them to bureaucrats with no agency or mystique. I don't watch Star Wars for the bureaucracy. 

None of them seem to care about anything unless they're fighting, and even then they only care about taking down the enemy. The lines between good and evil, light and dark could have been explored. What are the powers of the light side and the dark side and what is different about them? If Jedi have no code against killing or violence, why not use force chokes, force lightning, etc? What's the difference between that and chopping someone in half with a lightsaber? None of these are brought up or even hinted on. 

Instead we get Anakin saying bluntly "From my point of view the jedi are evil". 

I agree, it could have been done much better than how it was executed, though making them bureaucrats personally don't bother me. It's not overly complicated nor do I find it incredibly boring what GL did, in fact I'm interested. Like I said, they're supossed to be the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, but their hypocrisy and carelessness cleared the way for darkness to take over. That alone is interesting to me, and the amount of politics to me wasn't much, and I think it complements it well.

But I do understand that most don't watch SW for the politics, and I agree that there was probably too much of it in the prequels, the only one which bothered me about how much there was of it, was The Phantom Menace. I also agree that there could have been a much, much better way to explore this grey area, like what you suggested. But what I got still pleases me. I do think he competently did what he wanted to do with the Jedi. It just wasn't the ideal way of doing it, probably. I'm happy though.

I see that now, for the Jedi argument, we've arrived at the point where all that's left to argue is personal taste. Let's just agree to... well not disagree because I agree that what we got wasn't a good execution... Semi-agree, I guess?

I have no idea what The Last Jedi will be about. However, I think Luke realizing, after all he's seen (or more importantly: after all WE'VE SEEN him see) that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, would not only ring true and feel substantive, but also would be a logical progression for his character. He never knew the Jedi of old. He only knows what he's seen, which is a lot of death, especially in his own family.

I definitely agree. But I have to say Rian Johnson took notes from the Prequels (positive notes, regarding the Jedi).

They could have done a lot of things. We're talking about multiple space Merlins, here, each with their own Excalibur. To make them boring and hypocritical, and then to say "that was the point" is to miss the point.

Don't tell me this wasn't intended in the OT. The Jedi were presented to us as these mysterious guardians, and yes your allegory is true, but in Return of the Jedi we see how intent Yoda and Obi-Wan are that Vader must die. They see no other way. They're still part of the corruption. Yoda says, just like in the Phantom Menace: "Anger, fear, aggression... The dark side are they..." We see how Luke proves them wrong. He uses his fear, anger and aggression to beat Vader, but he realizes it, and learns to control it. He knows that these things don't lead to the dark side. The Jedi were always intended to be wrong. What we were presented in the Episodes IV and V about these great, compassionate protectors are revealed to be wrong in RotJ. It's subtle, but it's there. So no, it's not missing the point if it was intended from the start.

Moe_Syzlak said:
I'm still not even sure what's being argued here. Of course the execution matters. Yes, the PT shows more grey area than the OT did. So what? So did R1, only that film actually executed it well. I just think it's silly to argue that somehow that point was missed. It wasn't.  The movies just weren't very good. Period.

And period it is, because I agree that they weren't very good. Well, I do have a soft spot for RotS. Which leads us to...

TVs Frink said:
Masirimso17 said:
I disagree. It makes Anakin's character more interesting (sorry guys, I like him... in III)

I think EP III Anakin might be the worst of the (first) three.

Oh hey, Palpatine is a Sith.
I know, I'll kill Mace.
Oh wait, what have I done?!?!?
Mr. Sith lied to me about being able to save Padme?
Ah well, I'm gonna kill a bunch of kids now too.

b083cc20-3dec-459c-980b-2d56872b079e_text_hi.gif


Oh hey, Palpatine is a Sith.

I know, I'll kill Mace.

That wasn't a random decision. Throughout the movie it is shown how Anakin and Mace distrust each other so much. Anakin in particular, like I explained earlier, feels the council isn't being fair. They didn't go back on Tatooine to help free her mother, they don't appreciate nor trust him, especially Mace Windu, and due to Palpatine's lies, he thinks the Jedi are plotting to take over and rule. After seeing their carelessness and hypocrisy, being seduced by Palpatine and the Dark Side, and especially due to his love to Padme and the desire to save her, he decided that Sith is the way to go.

Oh wait, what have I done?!?!?

Even though I agree that line shouldn't have been there, it's no deal breaker since he's only expressing the shock of what he's done.

Mr. Sith lied to me about being able to save Padme?

True, that was really stupid that Anakin was ok with that. One justification is that the only way of learning to save others from death is through the Dark Side. But yes, he did say "Use my knowledge, I beg you" so that doesn't work. But 

Ah well, I'm gonna kill a bunch of kids now too.

I agree. Though I understand and buy Anakin's fall, I don't buy Anakin murdering children so fast.

However, these don't bother me as much because his fall is done very well. He fears that he will lose her mother, and when he does, that leads to his anger and hate to the Jedi (for their inaction) and of course the Tusken Raiders that he slaughters (his outburst to Padme and her being ok with what he did didn't make sense though, I agree). This anger and hate, he carries over with him, as well as the fear of losing Padme. That, and the seduction of Palpatine and the dark side, made him choose the dark side. As a result, he lost everything, his wife, his mentor and best friend, his limbs... And he suffers terribly. I find all this very good. The idea of it though. I do agree that it could have been executed better, especially with the dialogue.
 

TV's Frink

You Catch On Pretty Quick
Staff member
Donor
Faneditor
Messages
23,676
Reaction score
406
Trophy Points
193
I just feel like you've seen a different movie or something.
 

Moe_Syzlak

Well-known member
Messages
3,450
Reaction score
1,161
Trophy Points
118
"His fall is done very well."

See this is where you've completely lost me. I wanted Michael Corleone or Walter White, but I would've settled for Harvey Dent. What we got was... well, not good.
 

ThrowgnCpr

awol
Staff member
Messages
15,090
Reaction score
36
Trophy Points
133
Moe_Syzlak said:
"His fall is done very well."

See this is where you've completely lost me. I wanted Michael Corleone or Walter White, but I would've settled for Harvey Dent. What we got was... well, not good.

^ pretty much this. 

What I get from prequel apologists and Masirimso17's defense is that they love the idea of Anakin's fall, and try to use that to defend these movies, but completely ignore the execution of that idea in the films and all of the other inconsistencies.  Anakin's character, and his fall, is one of the most poorly handled cinematic experiences I've ever seen. More character depth has been demonstrated in the Sharknado saga... I for real enjoyed Sharknado more than Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith combined.

I really don't understand why people love ROTS so much. The "bruh, it's so dark" defense is nonsense. ROTS is pretty much on par with AOTC in its shittiness. If you can get past the annoying kid (yeah, kids are annoying. Have you met any?) and jar-jar nonsense of TPM, it's easy to see that it's the least offensive of the PT. By a longshot. Trying to impose political and moral depth on these movies is an exercise in frustration.

The prequels keep getting edited because people LOVE Star Wars and keep trying to find something, anything in these movies that can bring them into line with that universe. It ain't gonna happen.
 

Masirimso17

Well-known member
Cover Artist
Messages
2,137
Reaction score
236
Trophy Points
93
Yes, I love the idea of the prequels. Though I do agree that the execution was very poor. I think The Phantom Menace is mediocre and Attack of the Clones is terrible. But I like Revenge of the Sith. And my reasoning is not "bruh, it's dark".

Besides how it could have been better like Addie explained, and how obviously terrible the dialogue is, can someone please explain to me in detail why Anakin's fall, in execution, fails?
 

DigModiFicaTion

DᴉმWoqᴉԷᴉcɑꓕᴉou
Staff member
Faneditor
Messages
8,607
Reaction score
3,505
Trophy Points
168
Masirimso17 said:
Besides how it could have been better like Addie explained, and how obviously terrible the dialogue is, can someone please explain to me in detail why Anakin's fall, in execution, fails?

It's not believable.

TVs Frink said:
I think EP III Anakin might be the worst of the (first) three.

Oh hey, Palpatine is a Sith.
I know, I'll kill Mace.
Oh wait, what have I done?!?!?
Mr. Sith lied to me about being able to save Padme?
Ah well, I'm gonna kill a bunch of kids now too.
 

addiesin

Well-known member
Messages
5,888
Reaction score
1,502
Trophy Points
163
Anakin's turn to the dark side should have been set up from his actions in episode 1. Instead he's a wholesome, innocent child. 

Wouldn't it have been more interesting if he was the one using Force tricks to help the Jedi get their way? Set up some moral ambiguity to pay off later, maybe even during the pod race. He could have, for example, lost his temper or lost his nerve, and resorted to intentionally hurting other racers, with the Jedi seeing from the stands and realizing then that he must really have the Force, and that he must be trained to quell those outbursts.

Episode 2 should have focused on Anakin's training and friendship with Obi Wan instead of having them separate for an entire film. B story should have been the War breaking out, C story should have been the romance stuff. Culminates in Anakin getting drafted to fight, training incomplete.

Then later on episode 3, he could have been put on a position that made more logical sense. For example, good guys, try as they might, are losing the war. Bad guys are closing in. Realizing he's going to be a father soon, Anakin makes a hard choice to defect as the enemy closes in on his ship. He's had the offer but knows Palatine is obviously evil. However, in the face of impending death, it's now the only way he sees himself surviving to raise his kids. He sends a hologram or handprint or something. Obi Wan enters at that moment, and, feeling betrayed, picks a fight. The fight spills out of their war ship and onto the volcanic planet, where Anakin's temper causes him to misstep to his literal fall into the embers. He's left by his friend and found by his new allies, presumed dead. Obi wan breaks the news to Anakin's family that he was killed, by Darth Vader. The end.

Okay, that turned into fan fiction quick. (In that case, also Owen was there the whole time and Anakin was always a great pilot and there were two new droids to love, and Darth Maul was the consistent villain of all three episodes.)

Seriously though it's hard to just say something is bad without a counterpoint example to compare. 

They had the time, the resources, and the talent available to tell this story any way they wanted. They chose a way that doesn't resonate for many. 

It's double hard to swallow because such a big deal was made of Lucas conforming his first Star Wars story so closely to the monomyth structure, which might be full of cliche, but is a structure that resonates almost universally. The truth is, Lucas lost touch with his creative mojo sometime in the 90s and couldn't admit it. Maybe much earlier.
 
Top Bottom