addiesin said:
In my opinion, it takes a group of characters who had potential to explore issues of real substance in a fictional setting, and relegates them to bureaucrats with no agency or mystique. I don't watch Star Wars for the bureaucracy.
None of them seem to care about anything unless they're fighting, and even then they only care about taking down the enemy. The lines between good and evil, light and dark could have been explored. What are the powers of the light side and the dark side and what is different about them? If Jedi have no code against killing or violence, why not use force chokes, force lightning, etc? What's the difference between that and chopping someone in half with a lightsaber? None of these are brought up or even hinted on.
Instead we get Anakin saying bluntly "From my point of view the jedi are evil".
I agree, it could have been done much better than how it was executed, though making them bureaucrats personally don't bother me. It's not overly complicated nor do I find it incredibly boring what GL did, in fact I'm interested. Like I said, they're supossed to be the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy, but their hypocrisy and carelessness cleared the way for darkness to take over. That alone is interesting to me, and the amount of politics to me wasn't much, and I think it complements it well.
But I do understand that most don't watch SW for the politics, and I agree that there was probably too much of it in the prequels, the only one which bothered me about how much there was of it, was The Phantom Menace. I also agree that there could have been a much, much better way to explore this grey area, like what you suggested. But what I got still pleases me. I do think he competently did what he wanted to do with the Jedi. It just wasn't the ideal way of doing it, probably. I'm happy though.
I see that now, for the Jedi argument, we've arrived at the point where all that's left to argue is personal taste. Let's just agree to... well not disagree because I agree that what we got wasn't a good execution... Semi-agree, I guess?
I have no idea what The Last Jedi will be about. However, I think Luke realizing, after all he's seen (or more importantly: after all WE'VE SEEN him see) that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, would not only ring true and feel substantive, but also would be a logical progression for his character. He never knew the Jedi of old. He only knows what he's seen, which is a lot of death, especially in his own family.
I definitely agree. But I have to say Rian Johnson took notes from the Prequels (positive notes, regarding the Jedi).
They could have done a lot of things. We're talking about multiple space Merlins, here, each with their own Excalibur. To make them boring and hypocritical, and then to say "that was the point" is to miss the point.
Don't tell me this wasn't intended in the OT. The Jedi were presented to us as these mysterious guardians, and yes your allegory is true, but in Return of the Jedi we see how intent Yoda and Obi-Wan are that Vader must die. They see no other way. They're still part of the corruption. Yoda says, just like in the Phantom Menace: "Anger, fear, aggression... The dark side are they..." We see how Luke proves them wrong. He uses his fear, anger and aggression to beat Vader, but he realizes it, and learns to control it. He knows that these things don't lead to the dark side. The Jedi were
always intended to be wrong. What we were presented in the Episodes IV and V about these great, compassionate protectors are revealed to be wrong in RotJ. It's subtle, but it's there. So no, it's not missing the point if it was intended from the start.
Moe_Syzlak said:
I'm still not even sure what's being argued here. Of course the execution matters. Yes, the PT shows more grey area than the OT did. So what? So did R1, only that film actually executed it well. I just think it's silly to argue that somehow that point was missed. It wasn't. The movies just weren't very good. Period.
And period it is, because I agree that they weren't very good. Well, I do have a soft spot for RotS. Which leads us to...
TVs Frink said:
Masirimso17 said:
I disagree. It makes Anakin's character more interesting (sorry guys, I like him... in III)
I think EP III Anakin might be the worst of the (first) three.
Oh hey, Palpatine is a Sith.
I know, I'll kill Mace.
Oh wait, what have I done?!?!?
Mr. Sith lied to me about being able to save Padme?
Ah well, I'm gonna kill a bunch of kids now too.
Oh hey, Palpatine is a Sith.
I know, I'll kill Mace.
That wasn't a random decision. Throughout the movie it is shown how Anakin and Mace distrust each other so much. Anakin in particular, like I explained earlier, feels the council isn't being fair. They didn't go back on Tatooine to help free her mother, they don't appreciate nor trust him, especially Mace Windu, and due to Palpatine's lies, he thinks the Jedi are plotting to take over and rule. After seeing their carelessness and hypocrisy, being seduced by Palpatine and the Dark Side, and especially due to his love to Padme and the desire to save her, he decided that Sith is the way to go.
Oh wait, what have I done?!?!?
Even though I agree that line shouldn't have been there, it's no deal breaker since he's only expressing the shock of what he's done.
Mr. Sith lied to me about being able to save Padme?
True, that was really stupid that Anakin was ok with that. One justification is that the only way of learning to save others from death is through the Dark Side. But yes, he did say "Use my knowledge, I beg you" so that doesn't work. But
Ah well, I'm gonna kill a bunch of kids now too.
I agree. Though I understand and buy Anakin's fall, I don't buy Anakin murdering children so fast.
However, these don't bother me as much because his fall is done very well. He fears that he will lose her mother, and when he does, that leads to his anger and hate to the Jedi (for their inaction) and of course the Tusken Raiders that he slaughters (his outburst to Padme and her being ok with what he did didn't make sense though, I agree). This anger and hate, he carries over with him, as well as the fear of losing Padme. That, and the seduction of Palpatine and the dark side, made him choose the dark side. As a result, he lost everything, his wife, his mentor and best friend, his limbs... And he suffers terribly. I find all this very good. The idea of it though. I do agree that it could have been executed better, especially with the dialogue.