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SW - Star Wars

TV's Frink

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I don't peplum in the office, dummy.
 

Hal9000

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Even if one can find a plausible in-universe explanation that Leia misunderstood either Luke's question or who her own mother was, what's more important to me is the clear intentions of the film itself in what it's saying about these characters. Luke is gearing up to break the news to Leia about their relationship, starting out by asking about their mother. It's telling that Leia knows about her and Luke doesn't. Luke holds on that melancholy note for a moment before moving on.
Sure, maybe Leia doesn't know what she's talking about, but that's not what the scene is doing.
 

TomH1138

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DominicCobb -- Re: Cereal boxes: You, sir, win the Internet. :)

TM2YC -- Those are certainly all possibilities, but one should also keep in mind that R2 units are mass-produced throughout the galaxy. He couldn't know that it was this specific droid until he saw the message from Leia. Also, Padme owned R2, not Obi-Wan. The only problematic element here really is that he said he never owned any droid, but he seems to own R4 -- unless that was property of the Republic or the Jedi Council, and he just used that droid when sent out on assignment.

TM2YC said:
e.g. Padme needs to die at the end of ROTS, because the two weirdo space-monks wouldn't be able to abduct her son otherwise.

This is actually one point where I sympathize with Lucas: In the OT, everything seems to make sense due to the order in which we're given the information. Attempting to spell out everything in the PT inevitably shows us inconsistencies or insane plot ideas (as you said). It's a no-win situation.

Another example: Why does Yoda run away from his fight from Palpatine even though he's holding his ground? The answer is simply because at the beginning of the movie, Yoda has to be in hiding and Palpatine has to be in charge. When watching the OT, I never asked myself, "Why didn't Yoda take down Palpatine himself?" but once a story is created where both characters are integral to the plot, a standoff becomes inevitable right down to its illogical ending.

If the story was being crafted from scratch, one of those people should not have walked out of the room alive.

I've attempted to write out my own version of the prequels, seeing what I could come up with if I just used the information given in the OT. Inevitably, I find myself painted into a corner somewhere, where's there something left unexplained.

Lucas might have been better off going back another generation and telling us a KotOR-like story about some characters we never met. Any attempt to tell the story of Anakin Skywalker's fall runs into a bunch of problems.
 

ThrowgnCpr

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TomH1138 said:
Another example: Why does Yoda run away from his fight from Palpatine even though he's holding his ground? The answer is simply because at the beginning of the movie, Yoda has to be in hiding and Palpatine has to be in charge. When watching the OT, I never asked myself, "Why didn't Yoda take down Palpatine himself?"

Duh, It's because Palpatine had the high ground. He automatically wins. Ask ol' Ben.
 

TM2YC

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TomH1138 said:
Why does Yoda run away from his fight from Palpatine even though he's holding his ground? The answer is simply because at the beginning of the movie, Yoda has to be in hiding and Palpatine has to be in charge.

Was Yoda in hiding on Dagobah? (His home that was). Lucas choose to put Yoda into a duel with Palpatine by the plot decisions he took leading up to it e.g. By making Yoda the nominal leader of an intergalactic governmental body called "The Jedi", instead of some strange and powerful wizard who lives alone in an enchanted swamp. There is no problem in the OT on this front.
 

TV's Frink

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TomH1138 said:
DominicCobb -- Re: Cereal boxes: You, sir, win the Internet. :)

He does, but unless you are reading some of the nonsense on ot.com, you don't understand why.
 

TomH1138

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TM2YC said:
Was Yoda in hiding on Dagobah? (His home that was).

Was that his birth planet home, or was that the planet he moved to and called home? I call my current apartment home, but it's not where I grew up.

And if this is the home of Yoda's species, where are all the rest of them?

With the Emperor and Vader in charge, and Obi-Wan changing his name (although inexplicably only changing his first name), I do very much get the sense that Yoda is also in hiding, using just the information available in the OT.

I was actually agreeing with your point about the kidnapping, but it seems like maybe that didn't come across.
 

TomH1138

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TV's Frink said:
He does, but unless you are reading some of the nonsense on ot.com, you don't understand why.

I haven't been reading the threads on ot.com, but I have gotten into long and passionate online debates with people who insist that I'll understand why the Jedi Council could no longer use the Force to sense that Palpatine was the Sith Lord if I just read 3 novels and 12 comics and play one additional video game. My response has always been that I shouldn't need to do that much homework to understand one movie.

Dom's response seemed like a spoof of that "The spinoff materials explain everything!" mentality.
 

TM2YC

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TomH1138 said:
Was that his birth planet home, or was that the planet he moved to and called home?

Yes that's my point, we didn't know Yoda's backstory until Lucas laid it out in the prequels... in a way that contradicted the OT for no good reason.

Yoda shouldn't have even been in the prequels IMO. For one reason, it ruins the reveal in ESB and for another, Ben should have already been a 40-year-old, fully-trained and overly-confident Jedi who didn't think he needed Yoda's help to train Anakin. Because that's what it says happened in the OT.
 

ssj

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yoda's move to dagobah might also have been influenced by economics, e.g., lower rent, catastrophic identity theft, high saber insurance preems in urban areas, etc.
 

TomH1138

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TM2YC said:
Yes that's my point, we didn't know Yoda's backstory until Lucas laid it out in the prequels... in a way that contradicted the OT for no good reason.

Dagobah could have still been his home planet. We don't see where he goes after the Jedi Council meetings. I'm really not a prequel apologist, but to me this isn't contradiction. YMMV.

TM2YC said:
Yoda shouldn't have even been in the prequels IMO. For one reason, it ruins the reveal in ESB and for another, Ben should have already been a 40-year-old, fully-trained and overly-confident Jedi who didn't think he needed Yoda's help to train Anakin. Because that's what it says happened in the OT.

Now on this, I completely agree!
 

reave

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84159f4f0322efea571d3f2ca8016012.jpg
 

theforce

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TM2YC said:
Fanedit wise, you just have to treat the prequels as a separate (But sorta similar) continuity. The two trilogies cannot be tallied up, that way madness lies. e.g. Padme needs to die at the end of ROTS, because the two weirdo space-monks wouldn't be able to abduct her son otherwise.

I still struggle to conceive of a credible reason to explain how Luke and Leia could be separated at birth, while their mother was still living? Maybe if there had been a prophecy specifically stating "The son of Skywalker would destroy the Sith" and Anakin was only aware that his wife was pregnant with one child (Because space Ultra-Scans are cr*p?) then maybe it would make sense that only Luke had to be hidden from Palpatine/Vader.

LOOKING BACK TO THE FUTURE OF STAR WARS
By John L. Flynn

Luke and Leia represent the future of the galaxy, and their safety must be paramount. “The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him,” Ben explains to Luke.

Slipping through the Emperor’s hostile defenses, Kenobi manages to rescue Skywalker’s family. Leia and her mother then go to live on Alderaan, in the safety of Bail Organa’s family, while Obi-wan delivers Luke to his brother Owen Lars, possibly stopping first on Dagobah to bid Yoda farewell. (When he arrives on Dagobah, Luke tells Artoo- Detoo “there’s something familiar about this place,” suggesting that he has some childhood memory buried deep in his subconscious.) Kenobi then settles on Tatooine, not far from his brother’s moisture farm, changes his name (to Ben) and awaits the day when the young Luke will heed his own call to adventure. The film ends on a hopeful note. Even though the Republic has fallen to a greedy and corrupt politician and his sinister forces, a new Republic will someday emerge from the ashes of the old.
 

theforce

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Hi all,

I am starting this thread on the narrative of the Prequels. There are many people who hate the prequels. I am not one of them. I do like the prequels, but I do acknowledge that there are issues with them. And I know fan editors like them because in my opinion they wouldn't bother trying to re-edit them and use up all their time.

I am not one of those George Lucas bashers. He is brilliant and it is easy for all of use to play Monday morning quarter back with his films. I do still enjoy the prequels in their full un-editted version though. Yes, there are annoyances....nobody is perfect.

Some Lucas Quotes:

There’s actually a lot of stuff going on in [Menace], and it has to be there in order to make the story work.
[Anakin] has to start good and turn evil. You can’t have a monster turning into a monster. That’s not a story.

I have read many articles over the years since the prequels came out, but the most interesting that I would like to share is one written by Mike Klimo which is based on his analysis on an essay by Anne Lancashire titled:

“The Phantom Menace: Repetition, Variation, Integration,”

Here is the link to Mike Klimo's article, its a long article (9 pages) but interesting.

RING THEORY: The Hidden Artistry of the Star Wars Prequels.

http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/ring-composition-chiasmus-hidden-artistry-star-wars-prequels/

Remember, I am not talking about how Lucas edited the film....but more about the star wars narrative and themes inside them. Yes, I am aware that all these have to be conveyed (edited, pacing, characters, story) in the film properly.

Remember, inside the prequels there is a brilliant narrative.....I feel that Fan Editors here have done the best they could at getting that brilliance.
 

beezo

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Aaaaaaand, we're back to the "good story / bad execution" dialog.
 
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