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SW - Star Wars
(10-10-2019, 03:12 AM)Moe_Syzlak Wrote: Except that’s not the path of the Hero’s Journey.

The hero's journey only applies to the protagonist (or in some cases multiple protagonists) of the story. Supporting characters, such as mentors, don't require them. Rey is the new protagonist, therefore she is the only one who really needs a hero's journey. Poe and Finn are secondary protagonists, and could optionally have hero's journeys as well. Luke, Han, and Leia could have been just part of the supporting cast helping the new protagonists, and thus wouldn't need their own hero's journeys any more than C3PO or Chewbacca ever did.
Courage, men! we've not sunk before, and we'll not sink now!
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But Luke is on a Hero’s Journey. It would be disingenuous to that story to have him just live happily ever after. I mean there’s no requirements, but I’m personally glad they did what they did with Luke. My issues with ep8 are al ist entirely to do with the Resistance plot lines. The stuff with Luke/Rey/Kylo are all fine to me, with the exception of some humor I feel is misplaced.
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(10-09-2019, 05:33 PM)Collipso Wrote:
(10-09-2019, 03:41 AM)TMBTM Wrote: I wanted to add to my previous comment that even if the Sequels seams to have been made without a clear plan, I also feel that the Prequels had a weird structure.

-Spending a full first movie introducing some characters and things that are not developed in the second one.
-Having a second episode that lots of fans don't like...
-Having all the intersting story plots shown in the last movie... wait...
depending on how episode 9 will be, it's a bit the same thing, don't you think?
the PT's structure wasn't going to be this weird. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were supposed to be just one character - Obi-Wan - and Anakin was going to be a young adult. the reason for the changes:
- Lucas realized that he wasn't ever showing how a regular Master/Padawan relationship was supposed to be, so the audience would never see how different and unique Obi-Wan's relationship to Anakin was. in order to do that he made Obi-Wan the Padawan, and gave him a master.
- he also realized that there was an element lacking: what would emotionally attach Anakin to Tattooine so much to make him leaving such a heartbreaking moment? so he chose to make him a kid and have it be leaving his mom.

Lucas was also making stuff up on the spot during the PT, but since it was a one man effort it was less... heterogeneous, in a way. IMO, for the issues above, he could've just ignored the first issue, and he could've made Anakin be a young adult/teen that has to take care of his little brother, Owen. but anyways, he was under a lot of pressure at the time, and like it's been said infinite times, he was alone in making them.

but that made Episode I have to be set many years before the actual story of the PT, which kind of screwed Lucas' plans big time and made him have to condense the entire story onto two movies.

i also think it's really interesting how AotC is regarded as the worst nowadays. growing up, me and all my friends and basically everyone I knew agreed that TPM was by far the worst, AotC was good and RotS fantastic. i still hold that opinion (though TFA is rock botttom in my ranking), and TLJ is in between AotC and TPM to me.

--

concerning the discussion about the book, i think that Lucas deeply regrets the sale. he's still that 1970s revolutionary, and he must be incredibly mad at himself for selling his company - and therefore his IPs. and i don't mean that from a business or money standpoint - i don't think he cares about those much anymore - i mean from a creator of art standpoint. from a writer/director standpoint. they were his movies, it was his universe, and now they're somehow not anymore? someone else "owns" them? i mean that sounds incredibly... insane to me. it might be how stuff is legally but i really don't see it that way, and i don't think Lucas does either. and we seem to share the opinion on TFA, so when he was displeased with what was done to his story he must've really started voicing his unhappiness.

You can't simultaneously say that the PTs were a one-man show (which they weren't, lots of people worked on them) and say that Lucas couldn't do what he wanted to do. He was the lead voice and he did have a bunch of yes-men agreeing with every bad choice he made, but they could have pointed out the problems. And if he wanted to override them he could do that. Even if he did have a different plan for them to begin with, if he what we got made more sense than that original plan, it just means that he had two bad plans.
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(10-10-2019, 03:30 AM)Moe_Syzlak Wrote: But Luke is on a Hero’s Journey. 

He was at one point. But he doesn't have to be at the time that "The Force Awakens" is set. The hero's journey ends with the "return with the elixir", which arguably already happened twice (the ends of "A New Hope" and "Return of the Jedi").

Traditionally, when a story features the hero's journey, it's the focus of the plot and the main protagonist is the one going on the journey. There was no need for any of the old heroes to be still treading that path.
Courage, men! we've not sunk before, and we'll not sink now!
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(10-10-2019, 10:55 AM)hbenthow Wrote:
(10-10-2019, 03:30 AM)Moe_Syzlak Wrote: But Luke is on a Hero’s Journey. 

He was at one point. But he doesn't have to be at the time that "The Force Awakens" is set. The hero's journey ends with the "return with the elixir", which arguably already happened twice (the ends of "A New Hope" and "Return of the Jedi").

Traditionally, when a story features the hero's journey, it's the focus of the plot and the main protagonist is the one going on the journey. There was no need for any of the old heroes to be still treading that path.

I don’t disagree, but I like that, similar to Frodo, Luke doesn’t simply find peace; everything isn’t just right with the world. If Luke’s only role in the movie was to be Yoda, I would’ve been sorely disappointed. He needed his own struggle, not simply to be a mentor to Rey. You may feel differently and that’s fine, but as I said, the issues I personally had with TLJ had nothing to do with how Luke was handled.
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(10-10-2019, 12:10 PM)Moe_Syzlak Wrote: the issues I personally had with TLJ had nothing to do with how Luke was handled.

 Agreed. Where they went with Luke's story was great, it was the goofy humour and nonsensical/chaotic plotting of the rest that didn't fully work.
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(10-10-2019, 03:17 PM)TM2YC Wrote:
(10-10-2019, 12:10 PM)Moe_Syzlak Wrote: the issues I personally had with TLJ had nothing to do with how Luke was handled.

 Agreed. Where they went with Luke's story was great, it was the goofy humour and nonsensical/chaotic plotting of the rest that didn't fully work.

I also agree.... Exept one thing about Luke.
I find his story and how he died very good but the editing was a bit upseting to me at the very end.
You understand that he's not on the planet. So you're happy, he will not die. He's safe. He gave time for his friends to leave and acted like a true Jedi hero, fighting without attacking. "See ya around, kid!", Great! Then camera back on the island: he dies... boo.
I really think the audience should have learned at least 5 minutes before that he was on the island and that he was struggling to use all his power to Force project himself. The audience should have felt that he was maybe giving his everything and that it was a real "fight" for him.
I like Rian Johnson's directing style in general but it's true that for each turn in the story he goes for the "surprise" twist.  Sometimes it works but sometimes not.

Also about editing and Luke:
People did not like the "Luke trying to kill his nephew" scene. But the first time we see that scene it is from Kylo's point of view. Hence a very angry Luke with a distorded face, acting like a killer. And I feel that's what most of the audience kept in mind once the movie ended because it was the first version told in the movie. But it was not exactly the truth.  The truth is Luke's point of view: a troubled Luke who never was completely resolved to kill Kylo.

So all in all I really like Luke's story in TLJ (I think everything works from a story point of view) but I kind of understand how the way it is shown on screen can sometimes rub people the wrong way.
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^ Would you feel better about Luke's death if he came back as "Luke the White" in Ep 9? Big Grin
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(10-11-2019, 11:19 AM)TM2YC Wrote: ^ Would you feel better about Luke's death if he came back as "Luke the White" in Ep 9? Big Grin

"I'm ready for anything."
Angel

(PS: and again it's not the fac he died that upsets me, it's the editing of the scene.)
"Always in motion is the future"
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(10-11-2019, 11:19 AM)TM2YC Wrote: ^ Would you feel better about Luke's death if he came back as "Luke the White" in Ep 9? Big Grin

Pretty sure he’s coming back as Luke the Blue Glow.
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