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Exporting Mov into a good quality edit.

Stygma Raptor

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Hi, so I originally ripped my bluray copy into mp4 and then I transformed it into a mov with MPEG STREAMCLIP into a MOV so that I could work with it freely.

However now that my edit is complete I am having a huge trouble converting it into a file of the same quality as a bluray.
I've tried converting it to MOV and it looks super pixelized.

What should I do? to which format and with what specs should I convert it?

thank you for your help.
 

bionicbob

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What version of FINAL CUT are you using?

When you used MPEG STREAMCLIP what Compression did you use? Did you remember to set the Quality to 100%?
 

Stygma Raptor

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Yeah I did set the quality to 100%

I am using final cut pro 7.

And I used H.264 or 263. The one to turn it into MOV. >_>
At least the file says 264 so I assume it was H.264.

I really, really appreciate this man.

EDIT:
I think I used Pro Res 1422. I cant really remember >_<
I will ask my editing instructor tomorrow and find out.
 

bionicbob

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I have never worked with HD and still use Final Cut Express but have toyed with FCP7,
and for Compression I always chose one of the APPLE DVCPRO options.

For example, with FCE I use Apple DV/DVCPRO-NTSC

but with FCP7 is use Apple DVCPRO50-NTSC.

So my guess, you may want to use one of the HD options of this codex?

Did you remember to confirm your frame size, and in the Options window choose 16X9 and Progressive?

Hopefully someone with actual MAC HD editing experience will chime in with more helpful advice.
 

Stygma Raptor

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Yeah I want to use an HD option.
I really cant remember the window option thought, I think I left it on current.
Gonna give it a shot and try to render it with DVCPRO50-NTSC to see how it turns out. Will keep you guys posted.
 

Gatos

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Stygma Raptor said:
Yeah I want to use an HD option.
I really cant remember the window option thought, I think I left it on current.
Gonna give it a shot and try to render it with DVCPRO50-NTSC to see how it turns out. Will keep you guys posted.

Yep, let us know how it goes. And [MENTION=24185]Stygma Raptor[/MENTION], thank you for being patient and giving us details in your responses! Take note people, if you want help, the more info you provide the better!
 

geminigod

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bionicbob said:
Hopefully someone with actual MAC HD editing experience will chime in with more helpful advice.

Ditto that. As I mentioned in the other thread, I don't edit with mac. That said, there are really 3 options to explain this. 1) The settings/software you are using for your final encode are causing significant quality loss, 2) your workflow at the start of your project resulted in significant quality loss, or 3) a combination of all the above.

Considering it sounds like you have done multiple conversions between lossy formats, I am fearful #2 is most likely.

Need more info to say for certain about your exact workflow from beginning to end and exact settings used.
 

Stygma Raptor

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Well I transformed it from MP4 to mov on MPEG studio.

Now note: before turning it into mov I was basically editing most of the movie in MP4 format, which cause huge massive amounts of lag. My Instructor told me that the best thing to solve this would be to convert it into a MOV file in order to work more easily with it.
However since I had plenty of editing progress I had to do a "connect" or something like that which basically copied or transferred all my cuts from the past format into the new one.

Edit note: On Frame rate should I go with 30 or current? and in Data rate?
 

geminigod

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Sounds like a myriad of problems going on. Maybe do some research on proper mac ripping of blu-ray and converting to ProRes422. This ripping should not involve any re-encoding of the video. It shouldn't take longer than 5 or 10 minutes. All you are doing here is breaking copyright protections and making a clean copy of the movie to your HDD. Hopefully you can get the BD copied to your HDD and then take that M2TS file and convert it directly to prores422. This is what it sounds like you should be editing with (assuming you have the hard drive space and cpu power). Hopefully your timeline can be persevered in final cut and you can just replace the editing source video with your new prores source video.

Then you need to decide what you want the final viewing format to be, and make sure it doesn't get overly compressed. An HD movie should not be 500MB. That is crazy small and obviously not going to be high quality.

RE: framerate, don't ever fuck with the framerate unless you have no choice (such as combining video that is 2 different framerates), or you know enough to not have to ask that question.

This raises another question that could be your problem as well. Make sure all your project settings match the original source video settings.

That's all I got. Best of luck to you. Hopefully Google and perhaps some mac users on this site can steer you true.
 

bionicbob

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When you rip your dvd into VIDEO TS, use MPEG to export into a Quicktime File/.MOV.
Do all your editing in .MOV, do not edit in MP4.

Open MPEG Streamclip.
Drag your first VTS.VOB file into MPEG. It will ask if you want to open all as a DVD, chose YES.
Click FILE and click SHOW STREAM INFO. Keep this window open as it contains are the info about your file.
Then click FILE and click EXPORT TO QUICKTIME
Your movie exporter window will open.
Here you chose your compression. For a HD edit, you will have to research the correct choice.
Set QUALITY to 100%.
Click the OPTIONS icon and make sure it is set to PROGRESSIVE and 16x9.
Check your Stream Info window to find the FPS and enter the exact same number in the FRAME RATE.
Make sure you Frame Size correctly matches your File.
Match the FIELD DOMINANCE (upper or lower) to match what is listed in your Stream Info.
UNcheck INTERLACE SCALING and REINTERLACE CHROMA
Then click MAKE MOVIE.

Take the .MOV file and import into FCP and begin editing. FCP7 should automatically adapt to setting of your file when you drag it into the Timeline.

When done your editing, export as Quicktime Movie using Compressor.

I highly recommend you go to YOUTUBE, as there are extensive tutorials for Final Cut there.
 

geminigod

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bionicbob, he ripped from BD and is trying to do HD edit, so some of that only applies for DVD, however the same general workflow sounds like what L8wrtr said? Except l8 confirmed he used prores422.

Make sure all the settings are the same as the source file for resolution, which should be 1920x1080 progressive, 23.976 FPS.

According to wikipedia there is a Prores 444 codec that might be even better for preserving the source color quality, but it will produce a slightly larger editing file. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prores

... Also, there might be some kind of passthrough option so no re-encoding takes place?? I read something about this with .mov. That would be ideal if it is an option.

I don't see anything about what is happening with the audio in all of this converting. Hopefully that isn't being degraded either! ugh.
 

L8wrtr

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Hey guys, sorry I can't do a full response as I'm in Chili's hell with a bunch of families. I'll give some brief info and try to follow up tonight.

Gem, unfortunately in order to edit on FCP you have to re-encode the source file into a codec that FCP can process, essentially an intermediate codec.

When using SD sources on Mac I typically rip a straight copy and them use mpeg stream clip as Bob has outlined, however for HD sources this workflow is not ideal. I can't check right now but if memory serves stream lip doesn't even include apples's high res codecs (422 and 444). I used 444 for my Star Wars edits and the .mov files were over 200 gb. My current project I'm using 422 and the mov files are around 115.

For ripping/converting BD's I use PavTube. It's $50 or so but is a Godsend. You tell it what your using the file for (in this case FCP) and it then give you the codec options and then an option screen for details such as audio, frame rate etc. and then rips and encodes for you. (You can rip a straight copy and then re-encode but I had it do it on the fly with no problems).
 

L8wrtr

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I should clarify that PavTube will hand the audio and keep the muxed audio in the container. It will allow you to select from all of the audio options that the disk offers and allows you to control the quality.
 

L8wrtr

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As horrible as it may sound, it may be best to start from scratch, a fresh rip/encode with proper settings (I did this with my very first standard def edit). But not all has to be lost, if you do have to hit the reset button, you can still have people review your current project to give you feedback on the edit/narrative that you've done since it's a radical restructuring.
 

Stygma Raptor

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So when I finish exporting it I get a notice that says: File Error: Access Denied.

What is that supposed to mean?
 

geminigod

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Stygma Raptor said:
So when I finish exporting it I get a notice that says: File Error: Access Denied.

What is that supposed to mean?

You need to give better information when asking for help. Exporting from what to what using what program? We aren't mind readers.
 

Stygma Raptor

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I apologize.

I am exporting the MOV file into a DVCPRO50-NTSC using FCP7.
With highest quality and progressive, basically using all the stuff that bionicbob mentioned.
 

L8wrtr

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Stygma Raptor said:
I apologize.

I am exporting the MOV file into a DVCPRO50-NTSC using FCP7.
With highest quality and progressive, basically using all the stuff that bionicbob mentioned.

Hi Stygma.

Based on your information it sounds like you Ripped the file directly into an MP4 file, but MP4 is only a container, the video file itself uses a codec. This is the first unknown element in your workflow, and if you made a mistake here, then ever successive step in the workflow will only exaggerate your quality problems. It likely of little use to trouble shoot your exporting questions without first examining your workflow in detail to determine if you unknowingly introduced critical quality issues early in the process.

Step 1 is to let us know what program you used to rip the BD, and if possible, what the settings were for that operation. There are two types of rips, (particularly in the Mac world) The first is literally just making a direct copy on your hard drive, minus copy protection, you then take this file and use MPEG Streamclip to re-encode it into an intermediary codec that FCP7 can use.

There are however some ripping programs which will automatically re-encode as part of the ripping process. Done properly, this negates the need for running the file through MPEG streamclip. Basically, your rip should only re-encode the file IF it is going to re-encode it directly into a codec and container that FCP7 can use. Otherwise, you're degrading the quality of the material by adding an extra and needless step.

So if you can first tell us what program you used and the ouput settings, we can then start to figure out the next steps. A screen capture of the dialog boxes would be helpful too :)


For reference, when editing BD I used PavTube (as I mentioned in a previous post). It re-encodes directly into the intermediary codec that FCP7 needs. I then edit to my hearts content, and then use Compressor to re-encode into a codec needed for either creating a DVD or BD file.
 

seciors

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Ok, so I also have a lot of mac experience and maybe I can help here as well.

First, you need to rip the source material as has been said before, preferably without any change of format. You are working with BD, so you a need a tool that does this for you. This is actually the one step I don't have the answer for you as I have another thread with this exact same question (just the ripping step). However, L8 mentions PavTube can do this; during my own research, I also have come across makemkv (which is currently free while in beta) and will rip to a mkv file. That file will need to be broken apart using another free tool I have used a lot (iMkvExtract), and the resulting files can be fed to MPEGStreamclip. Finally, I have heard that DVDFab has a product that will also rip BDs. Again, hopefully my other thread will hash out the differences and/or at least the best choice for doing this. For now though, you can just follow L8's advice on this since he obviously has had proven success with PavTube.

Now, and this is the very important part: you MUST only transcode to an intermediate codec (that is a code which is meant for editing, as opposed to a delivery codec, like h264 which is very highly compressed), and on the mac when using FCP, that ONLY means PRORES.

There are actually four different types of the PRORES codec:
1. prores 444 - the least lossy codec, which also has an alpha channel built-in. For fan editing purposes, this is WAY overkill to use as a main codec; however, it DOES have it's uses when you need to create something where you need an alpha channel. For example, I've used this codec when working in Motion (for my Episode II edit I recreated the beginning approach to coruscant) and you want an alpha channel in the result, for example, to show the stars in the background.

At any rate, there is absolutely no need to use prores 444 for your entire movie. You really will just end up using a lot of extra hard drive space and probably slightly degrade editing performance due to the extra i/o that entails

2. prores 422 - this is apple's "main" editing codec, meant for professional editors working on original source material inside final cut pro. I will not say you cannot use this codec, and if you aren't concerned at all about hard drive space, this is probably a fine choice.

3. prores 422 (LT) - this is the "lite" version of prores 422 which ends up taking up roughly 2/3 of the space of proves 422. This is the codec I use for all my HD edits, and here's why. If you read Apple's white paper on all these codecs, you will find out that this codec is visually equivalent to prores 422 until you get to about the 10th generation. Basically, unless you plan on doing A LOT of compositing and/or going back and forth between different programs, prores should fully meet your quality needs. You always have the option to take a section of your edit and export it as proves 422 or 444 if you plan on using another tool. Also, you can set FCP to do all it's own intermediate rendering in prores 422, so you kind of get the best of both worlds since your original media gets converted a single time into proves 422 LT (saving you space and being visually equivalent to proves 422), while when working in your editing program, you are using proves 422 which alleviates worries that you might be degrading quality based on extensively edited sections (e.g., lots of compositing/special effects added in a single location).

4. prores (proxy) - DON'T use this for your main edit. This is meant as a much smaller, lightweight codec for "offline" editing use by professionals. For the purposes of this discussion, we should leave it there; there are uses for this codec during your editing process, but that's a different topic!

So to sum up, use either prores 422 or 422(LT).

Ok, so we have ripped to disc in native format using some sort of software, and possibly even transcoded directly to quicktime if you follow L8's workflow.

In my current workflow, I use MPEGStreamclip for the transcode, and (I haven't checked my other thread yet) I'm hoping there will be a way to rip to a format that I can use with it, since MPEGStreamclip has proven to be a very very reliable transcoder/encoder and is widely used even in professional circles. It's main drawback is speed; it only is single threaded which is a major bummer; but it gets the job done and done right. Personally, I've had some problems in the past using Apple's Compressor (getting confused with some 23.976 vs 24fps issues I think), but I've never had a problem with MPEG stream clip. FYI, I usually transcode the video and audio separately in MPEGStreamclip, then combine them using Quicktime Pro later (see below).

I will definitely need to check out PavTube, given L8's recommendation though. If L8 thinks PavTube transcodes to prores without any problems, then that might be the easiest best solution (on the mac, having to do less steps is better). Make sure you create a quicktime movie file (.mov) and NOT anything else though. Finally, if you are using FCPX, you will still possibly need to deal with file size (see below). (And, if you are using FCPX, you might need to play around with the audio choices to get the one that works best with FCPX...I haven't used it yet so I don't know whether this is an issue or not)

At any rate, I can definitely confirm MPEGStreamclip can transcode directly to all the prores codecs, and again, it is a great tool that is very well known and respected.

There are two more issues I want to address, audio, and file size.

First, audio. Obviously you want to have 5.1 sound. MPEG streamclip can read AC3 audio files (but not DTS files, unfortunately), and export individual uncompressed (AIFF) files for each channel. In my standard workflow, this is what I do. Then I combine the video and the 6 audio channels together using Quicktime Pro (you might not have this; not sure if apple is still selling it, but it was only about $30 at the time). Quicktime Pro lets me assign each audio an individual channel (L, R, C, LFE, LR, LS), and also add them to the file in that exact order which is the order in which FCPX requires. (I think FCP7 has a bit more flexibility here and lets you assign the channels right inside the application). I forget if you are using FCP7 or FCPX, but if it is FCP7 then you probably don't need to worry about this and can just import everything into FCP7 and assign channels there. Then you can create a big compound clip and use that as your source for everything. For FCPX, you need to get the audio packaged correctly ahead of time to not cause you headaches later.

Finally, file size. This only applies to FCPX -- if you are using FCP7, you don't need to worry about this. However, with FCPX, due to how it has been engineered (it auto-saves EVERY SINGLE edit you make immediately, thus taking away the need for a manual "save" command [which doesn't even exist in the app!), you need to work with your original material split up into sections. I use Quicktime Pro to split up my one big file into several files of about 10 minutes in length. This was absolutely necessary in the early days of FCPX; maybe they fixed the problems that caused the performance issues that would crop up once you got about 30-45 minutes into your edit. But I still play it safe and do this extra step. Again, I don't recall you mentioning FCPX so maybe this won't apply to you.

Hope some of this helps!
 

geminigod

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seciors said:
I also have come across makemkv (which is currently free while in beta) and will rip to a mkv file.

Keep in mind that an MKV file is also a container file not so different from MP4 (or the BD M2TS file for that matter). They are all using some form of H.263 or H.264 as the underlying video codec, all of which are very lossy formats. Thus you may gain nothing by converting to this except to potentially cause quality loss... UNLESS what the MKV tool is doing is simply demuxing the M2TS file and remuxing as MKV. IF this is the case and IF this allows your other program to then convert that into the ProRes format, this could be an acceptable workflow with minimal quality loss. It should be easy to tell, because if it is just re-muxing, the whole conversion process shouldn't take more than 10 minutes. If it is re-encoding, the process will take significantly longer for a movie.

As L8wrtr mentioned above, the BD either needs to be converted directly to the format you are going to edit in, or it needs to be converted to an intermediate lossless format that you can then convert to your editing format.

It sounds like Pavtube is worth the money.
 
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