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Handman said:I understand where Warb is coming from completely. I gave up actually watching the new episodes this season around Fugitive of the Judoon, something I thought I would never do, but I'm still actively watching past episodes and have a ton of the old show to catch up on. I've been a huge fan for over 8 years and don't anticipate dropping the show entirely just because of one writer. Of course I want to know what the new show is doing just to keep tabs on it, and will eagerly return once Chibnall has left.
I am definitely upset that I just don't enjoy the show right now, after loving it for so long, wouldn't you?
addiesin said:Handman said:I understand where Warb is coming from completely. I gave up actually watching the new episodes this season around Fugitive of the Judoon, something I thought I would never do, but I'm still actively watching past episodes and have a ton of the old show to catch up on. I've been a huge fan for over 8 years and don't anticipate dropping the show entirely just because of one writer. Of course I want to know what the new show is doing just to keep tabs on it, and will eagerly return once Chibnall has left.
I am definitely upset that I just don't enjoy the show right now, after loving it for so long, wouldn't you?
Well sure, and maybe that's what Warb meant? But that's not what he said.
I'm sorry you're not enjoying it Handman, but I can respect that you came to your own opinion. I thought the Judoon episode was really fun, what about it made you not want to continue watching?
Handman said:Well, it was really just a culmination of not really liking Series 11, and not seeing much of an improvement in Series 12. Dull characters, inconsistent Doctor morals always taken to be right or unquestionable (rather than called out for being inconsistent or outright wrong, like leaving the nonwhite Master to the Nazis or wiping Ada Lovelace's mind), just not really seeing any development of our characters, constant exposition and hamfisted, obvious lessons (as opposed to arriving at them naturally).
All in all the show just doesn't seem to have anything to actually say thematically, and doesn't have any characters I gravitate to.
Add on to that the rumors I heard, which were pretty much confirmed by Judoon and from what I hear only moreso in the finale, and I figured it was time to stop watching something I wasn't really enjoying anymore anyway. The show felt more like an obligation than something I looked forward to each week.
I love, love, love the 60s era of the show. I loved watching Hartnell's Doctor grow as a character, from a man who just ran away and willing to bash a caveman's skull in to the reluctant hero we see in The War Machines. To Troughton's embrace of the mischievous do-gooder, not quite the epic hero we see by the time we reach the new show, but on his way. The implications of the most recent series run completely contrary to what I love about the show, about an ordinary man who ran away and became great through his actions, the thought that anybody could be like the Doctor. And Hartnell was the one who started it all, starting off in a clearly unheroic role and growing as a character into what we would come to associate with him for the next 50+ years.
To suggest that Hartnell was not the first incarnation of the Timelord known as the Doctor, running around in a blue police box doing heroic deeds (as the Ruth Doctor insinuates), completely undermines his entire character arc. To suggest the Doctor is a super special chosen one completely undermines the fact that the Doctor has always been the unlikely hero, doing what he does not because of some destiny but because he believes it's right. To suggest that none of these changes actually undermine any of that calls into question why the changes were even made in the first place. It's just a sad state of affairs and I can't wait for it to be swept under the rug like the Morbius Doctors were for over 40 years, the half-human angle for 20, and all the countless other things, and we can just ignore it and go back to having fun adventures again.
If the first Doctor didn't know he wasn't technically the first, didn't know he was special, etc, but chose to do what he did and chose to be who he was anyway, does that really hurt his arc? Are you what people say you are or what you choose to be? Not trying to get into philosophy but I think that's an important question if changes to pre Hartnell lore really bug you.
To suggest that none of these changes actually undermine any of that calls into question why the changes were even made in the first place.
Why do I have to know where the story will end to know if I will like what the show is doing right now? I never had that problem before. And I don't have an encyclopedia knowledge of the show until I see it, I actually watched it without knowing what happens and enjoyed it while watching. I didn't read up on Hartnell's arc before seeing it for myself. And from what I've watched of Whittaker's run, I don't want to continue watching based on what I've seen already. I should be able to actually enjoy what I'm watching without regard to wherever it's going, otherwise what's the point?Another point I want to make quickly is that the Hartnell arc you like so much has the benefit of being over already, so you know how he starts and how he ends. Whittaker is still going but you seem to be judging her character are without knowing where it's actually going to end up.
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What I personally take issue with is the opposite of blind defense, blind hatred based on taking for granted what others say or what contextless plot descriptions include.
Handman said:To suggest that none of these changes actually undermine any of that calls into question why the changes were even made in the first place.
Why do I have to know where the story will end to know if I will like what the show is doing right now? I never had that problem before. And I don't have an encyclopedia knowledge of the show until I see it, I actually watched it without knowing what happens and enjoyed it while watching. I didn't read up on Hartnell's arc before seeing it for myself. And from what I've watched of Whittaker's run, I don't want to continue watching based on what I've seen already. I should be able to actually enjoy what I'm watching without regard to wherever it's going, otherwise what's the point?
And blind hatred? I've gone 15 episodes before giving up. I don't need to actually see the entire finale to know the ideas it presents are completely contradictory to what I love about the show, based on what I've already seen. Why would I watch something I know I won't like?
Warbler said:I'll just put it bluntly, this is not the show I grew up with and loved as a kid. I am done with it.
asterixsmeagol said:Warbler said:I'll just put it bluntly, this is not the show I grew up with and loved as a kid. I am done with it.
This is the same kind of complaint Doctor Who gets with every regeneration and Star Trek get with every new series, going back all the way to Troughton and TNG. Both franchises go through drastic changes with each iteration, but that's a strength, not a weakness. A Hartnell-style Doctor Who would not be on the air 50 years later, nor would a TOS-style Star Trek. But a show going through changes doesn't mean it's not the same show any more than you going through changes means you are not the same person you were as a kid. Things grow and change through time. If the show stayed exactly the same, what would be the point of making new episodes? You may not like the show any more, and that's fine. It's like letting a friendship lapse when you've grown apart. Most friendships last a few years, then fade away. But sometimes you get a friend that you still like hanging out with for years on end. And sometimes you just need a break from somebody for a while and then you can meet up a few years later and strike things back up. Hopefully that's what happens for you and Doctor Who.
addiesin said:which seems like it would anger fewer people
Zarius said:addiesin said:which seems like it would anger fewer people
It seems not actually.
Really, for most, this reveal was the last straw.
Oh you know how it is on the internet...so hard to read into anything other than what's on the pageaddiesin said:Zarius said:addiesin said:which seems like it would anger fewer people
It seems not actually.
Really, for most, this reveal was the last straw.
Right? I was hoping someone would catch the irony there.
I have also heard it speculated thataddiesin said:Fugitive of the Judoon
After thinking about it, if Ruth-Doctor is real and is pre-Hartnell, it's a little weird that she has the police box TARDIS, since Moffatt showed us with his own tinkering that Gallifreyan Clara made sure Hartnell picked the right TARDIS, and it looked like a concrete slab, indicating that its Chameleon Circuit still worked. My current head canon is that Ruth Doctor stole it from, and eventually returned it to, a later Doctor, so from the TARDIS's perspective, Hartnell stole it first, broke the circuit, and passed it on. Or the Chameleon Circuit works fine and the Doctor is really in love with that shape and lies about it.
This apparent discrepancy can be explained easily ifaddiesin said:The Haunting of Villa Diodati
: this was pretty dang good too, IMO. My biggest complaint is just that it kind of overlaps with some eighth Doctor audio adventures I really like, but I mean, it's a good episode so I'll accept it.
asterixsmeagol said:This apparent discrepancy can be explained easily ifthe Eighth Doctor encounters Mary Shelley at a later point in her life than the Thirteenth Doctor. The Eighth Doctor and Mary have their adventures, then from the Thirteenth Doctor's point of view, she meets Mary again, but from Mary's point of view they have never met. The story features the re-writing of history, so for this Altered-Point-of-View-Mary, her encounters with the Eighth Doctor will never occur.
ChainsawAsh said:asterixsmeagol said:This apparent discrepancy can be explained easily ifthe Eighth Doctor encounters Mary Shelley at a later point in her life than the Thirteenth Doctor. The Eighth Doctor and Mary have their adventures, then from the Thirteenth Doctor's point of view, she meets Mary again, but from Mary's point of view they have never met. The story features the re-writing of history, so for this Altered-Point-of-View-Mary, her encounters with the Eighth Doctor will never occur.
That can't work because Haunting of Villa Diodati and Mary's Story both take place on the same night...