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Doctor Who

addiesin

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wilhelm scream said:
I think Hell Bent is one of the worst Doctor Who episodes ever!

Sounds like blind hatred to me. Any reason why you thought it was the worst ever?
You were also the one who spoiled a big reveal in a recent episode for a lot of people in this thread, I'm starting to think you just have no respect for the show or people who enjoy it. If you post spoilers, use the spoiler tags! It's not hard, I do it on my mobile phone without even using a real keyboard, I know you can do it too.
 

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musiced921 said:
But he said something to the effect that it was in the wrong place. Something like "wasn't this located on the other side of that hill." I get the timey whimey, but that doesn't make sense even with timey whimey.

Of course it does. It's a TARDIS, and she's a time traveler now. Now that The Doctor's told her it needs to be located on the other side of the hill, it will be in time for the events of season six.
 

wilhelm scream

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addiesin said:
Sounds like blind hatred to me. Any reason why you thought it was the worst ever?
You were also the one who spoiled a big reveal in a recent episode for a lot of people in this thread, I'm starting to think you just have no respect for the show or people who enjoy it. If you post spoilers, use the spoiler tags! It's not hard, I do it on my mobile phone without even using a real keyboard, I know you can do it too.

I feel really offended by your comment. For a start, I don't know how to use spoiler tags and I didn't mean to spoil anything, I assumed people wouldn't read this thread without seeing the latest episode first.

I do have respect for the show! I just think it's getting as bad as when JNT was producer! In fact it's even worse! I will never forget watching the 50th anniversary special on the day it was broadcast, and I couldn't feel anything but disappointment from it. It just had a cop out ending which undid what RTD had done for the show since it re-launched in 2005. It also made a bunch of bad decisions.

For example: Why was there a need to create the War Doctor? He could have been the 8th doctor as he was only in 1 TV story and it would explain why he was never mentioned in the revival. Also, why were the Zygons there!? That had nothing to do with the story and were just there so Moffat could do another infamous question which would take ages for it to be answered! But the worst thing was cutting short the regeneration! Even if Eccleston had said no, they could have just used a picture of him! (As This video proves it was possible:

For me, Steven Moffat is ruining the show with his UN-necessary story arcs and confusing story telling which is UN-enjoyable and might get the show cancelled!

As for why I hate Hell Bent: This explains perfectly why it's terrible!:
 

Zarius

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Mr.TARDIS is an idiot. People like him like the show to a point, then they outgrow it, but unfortunately hang on just to nitpick at everything, and make complete hypocrites out of themselves. "Oh I love that the show is all about change and renewal...what's this? THE SHOW CHANGED SOMETHING? RAGE" they need to stop wanting everything to fit within their comfort zones. Or, better yet, lighten up and stop taking this show so seriously. It's always been completely naff and has done just as many divisive things in the past to it's own canon.

And JNT running the ship was never as bad as modern "fans" pretend it was.

And don't act like people weren't doing the same thing back when RTD was in charge. I've been in the trenches a long time with these over-entitled elitists.
 

addiesin

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wilhelm scream said:
I feel really offended by your comment. For a start, I don't know how to use spoiler tags and I didn't mean to spoil anything, I assumed people wouldn't read this thread without seeing the latest episode first.

I'm sorry to offend, that was not my intent. If you don't know how to use the spoiler tag, I'll explain. use these brackets [tag] and replace the word 'tag' with the word 'spoiler'. Then add your text content after the brackets. After the text content, use these brackets with the slash to close the tag [/tag] and again, replace the word 'tag' with the word 'spoiler'. Alternatively, hit the 'Reply' button on a post that has a spoiler tag and just copy what that person did.
Unfortunately as evidenced by the replies to your spoiler post, some people didn't even click on the thread and were still spoiled. It is a legitimate concern.

I do have respect for the show! I just think it's getting as bad as when JNT was producer! In fact it's even worse! I will never forget watching the 50th anniversary special on the day it was broadcast, and I couldn't feel anything but disappointment from it. It just had a cop out ending which undid what RTD had done for the show since it re-launched in 2005. It also made a bunch of bad decisions.

For example: Why was there a need to create the War Doctor? He could have been the 8th doctor as he was only in 1 TV story and it would explain why he was never mentioned in the revival. Also, why were the Zygons there!? That had nothing to do with the story and were just there so Moffat could do another infamous question which would take ages for it to be answered! But the worst thing was cutting short the regeneration! Even if Eccleston had said no, they could have just used a picture of him! (As This video proves it was possible: [video]

For me, Steven Moffat is ruining the show with his UN-necessary story arcs and confusing story telling which is UN-enjoyable and might get the show cancelled!

I can appreciate that you don't like some of Moffat's and the show's choices, and in some ways I agree. The 8th doctor could have been utilized in lieu of the 9th since Eccleston really didn't want to show up. Paul McGann was obviously willing to make an appearance, hence his turning up in the short 'The Night of the Doctor'. I think Moffat's got an obsession with giving the audience what they would never expect, and sometimes this turns out for the worse instead of for the better. However, I disagree with your opinion that it's disappointing, awful, terrible, unenjoyable, etc. I use those words when I'm not entertained and/or when the story doesn't make any sense, and I felt like the story did make sense and was entertaining for the majority of the current season.
Anyway, I much prefer this kind of reasoning for why you feel so negatively instead of just saying you hate something. Thank you for that.

As for why I hate Hell Bent: This explains perfectly why it's terrible!:

I see that this reviewer doesn't seem to be a fan of Doctor Who anymore. I am sorry if you feel that way and still continue to watch, that must be painful. I know the feeling, I'm still watching Gotham even though deep down I feel like it has a lot of problems that could harm the character and setting of Batman and Gotham respectively. The show isn't for me but my wife likes it because it resembles her favorite crime procedural shows, and I end up along for the ride because I'm so glad she's interested in anything remotely related to science fiction and superheroes. I don't share my opinion of Gotham very often because I don't like wasting time explaining my views or talking about a thing I don't even enjoy all that much. But if I do express my frustrations with it, I like to think I justify my opinions with examples or reasoning.

That's all I'm asking of you. Not to "try to do better than Moffat" which I've seen people suggest and think is ridiculous. Not to "stop watching because it's clearly not for you" because as I've experienced sometimes you just can't pull yourself away even if you're not enjoying a thing. But to be expressive and open to actually discussing what you see as problems, because sometimes that can be the best kind of discussion. Even if we don't agree, we can understand each other.
 

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Zarius said:
JNT running the ship was never as bad as modern "fans" pretend it was.

^ This.

A few months back I watched 1984's 'The Caves of Androzani' (Series 20 closer and oft cited as the best ever) and 'The Twin Dilemma' (Series 21 opener and oft cited as the worst ever) and I couldn't see any difference in quality? Both were fab IMO. Also JNT helmed many of the best stories. However, he did decide Bonnie Langford was a good choice for a companion (See video below)... so on balance he should probably be hated and scorned :-D.

Mel scream supercut (Like nails on the proverbial blackboard)...

 

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ARRRRRRRRGH.

(great, now it's infectious)
 

wilhelm scream

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It's ironic when you think about it. JNT produced the best and worst Doctor Who story ever. Also, if he wasn't as bad as fans say he is then how come he made all these mistakes?

-changed everything with season 18

-didn't finish Shada

-hired Christopher Bidmed as the script writer

-replaced Nicola Briant with Bonnie Langford

-have the entire of season 23 be a trial season

-make the 6th doctor wear a costume that was probably born in a tans-mat accident

-make some major editing errors (this mainly applies to Curse Of Fenric and Ghost Light)

-not show the actual transition between the actors and obscure it with bright lights

-turn Doctor Who into a kids show

-Have most stories have terrible 1-word titles

and the biggest error of all...

-get the show cancelled, TWICE!
 

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wilhelm scream said:
It's ironic when you think about it. JNT produced the best and worst Doctor Who story ever. Also, if he wasn't as bad as fans say he is then how come he made all these mistakes?

-changed everything with season 18

Define "everything".

wilhelm scream said:
-didn't finish Shada

...despite his best and repeated efforts.

wilhelm scream said:
-have the entire of season 23 be a trial season

A creative response to DG Michael Grade trying to wreck the show.

wilhelm scream said:
-not show the actual transition between the actors and obscure it with bright lights

Was he supposed to force Colin Baker at gun point?

wilhelm scream said:
-turn Doctor Who into a kids show

It is/was primarily a kids a show.

wilhelm scream said:
-Have most stories have terrible 1-word titles

Like 'Shada'?

wilhelm scream said:
and the biggest error of all...

-get the show cancelled, TWICE!

Or to put it another way... he fought to keep Doctor Who alive against a hostile BBC Director General (Who even went on air to say he wanted to end Doctor Who). It got cancelled when it was on a high creatively IMO. He couldn't of saved it.
 

asterixsmeagol

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addiesin said:
The 8th doctor could have been utilized in lieu of the 9th since Eccleston really didn't want to show up. Paul McGann was obviously willing to make an appearance, hence his turning up in the short 'The Night of the Doctor'.
How would that have worked? We already saw the Seventh Doctor regenerate into the Eighth.
As much as I like John Hurt, I would have rather seen them just use McGann in that role. He deserves more screen time!
 

addiesin

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asterixsmeagol said:
How would that have worked? We already saw the Seventh Doctor regenerate into the Eighth.
As much as I like John Hurt, I would have rather seen them just use McGann in that role. He deserves more screen time!

I'm not sure I understand what you're confused about. I was agreeing with Wilhelm that Paul McGann could have been in the 50th anniversary instead of creating the war doctor specifically for the special. The original plan was to include Christopher Eccleston, but he turned down the offer, so they created the War Doctor. Why did they create the War Doctor, when Paul McGann was available and willing to reprise his role as the 8th Doctor? No idea, especially since he was used in the short film that shows him regenerate into Hurt, which means he was around, and they were thinking of him.

The above is just me reiterating what I already said. Hopefully that clears up any confusion. If not, let me know.
 

asterixsmeagol

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I think we're on the same page. I thought you were suggesting having Hurt regenerate into McCann at the end.
 

bionicbob

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JNT?
Is that Nathan Turner?

As someone who did not grow up on Who and is still slowly rediscovering the classic series, I was wondering if someone would enlighten me more with their opinion on the history of the show. The different producer eras, the strengths and weakness of each, etc? Why the great divide over JNT?
 

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bionicbob said:
As someone who did not grow up on Who and is still slowly rediscovering the classic series, I was wondering if someone would enlighten me more with their opinion on the history of the show. The different producer eras, the strengths and weakness of each, etc? Why the great divide over JNT?

JNT is commonly associated with the perceived deterioration of the classic series back in the day. This was at a time where the fandom had balooned and JNT was one of the first to properly interact with them...sometimes taking time out of production meetings to give interviews to fanzines and such, much to the irritation of his inner circle, led at the time by Eric Saward, his script editor. The two had a stormy relationship that just continued to spiral downwards.

JNT's era could at times be a pantomime, but it could also be fairly edgy...one story in his run has a higher death count than the first Terminator movie!

JNT would sometimes go on chat shows and announce that fans had "cheating memories"...aka they lived in a nostalgia bubble and constantly savaged the show for not being the era they grew up in...despite the fact the same problems they were bringing up probably existed back then too, but they would not admit it because of their sentiment to the eras they were raised on.

It was a series of circumstances..ageing series, entitled fanbase, biased BBC, behind-the-scenes tension, all of which contributed to the show not meeting certain expectations. No matter how creative it got, the show was in a position where it couldn't please anyone, and thus had to be cut loose to free up the schedules. The show could'nt keep up with all of the american sci-fi shows at the time either because the BBC had a stranglehold on the budgets. Period drama was all that could make the show look good by the end in that department.

And then JNT bowed out with "Dimensions in Time", the worst charity special ever, which did'nt help matters.

That said, I grew up with JNT's run, so I can never hate it...the man had his demons, his struggles, and through it all, fought a downhill battle to keep the show alive as long as he could, he made mistakes, and he also triumphed...but for all that effort, the conceited fanbase continues to conspire against him
 

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bionicbob said:
The different producer eras

D%C3%A6mons7.png


I like the 70-74 Pertwee era team of Barry Letts (Producer) and Terrance Dicks (Script Editor) the best. They brought a real intelligence and political bite to the show but still packed the episodes full of OTT fun and action. They used Sci-Fi they way it should always be used to talk about current issues they cared about (like aparthied, the environment and capitalism).
 

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For me, the best producers were Philip Hinchcliff and Robert Holmes. They made some of the best stories ever and had a dark tone which I liked and was rarely produced anything bad!
 

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Since I did not grow up watching Who on a regular basis, this all very fascinating for me.

Interestingly, many of the Who dvds I have been collecting and enjoy are from the JNT era, as I really like Peter Davidson and I absolutely love Sylvestor McCoy, particularly his last two seasons. I love the dark, mysterious nature they gave McCoy's Doctor. I have only seen one or two serial with Colin Baker so far, and neither really interested me.

I also enjoy the Third Doctor immensely, especially during his Earthbound period.

Tom Baker is a real mixed bag for me...lol

When I compared Classic Who to NuWho, the original series feels more like science fiction to me while nuWho feels more like fantasy. The same way imo Star Wars is fantasy while Star Trek is sic-fi. Both are great, but they are very different storytelling styles.
 

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bionicbob said:
Tom Baker is a real mixed bag for me...lol.

That's understandable, the guy went through three distinct eras and producers (the more gothic Holmes/Hinchecliffe, the light hearted and fluffier Graham Williams era, and then the heavy science and fantasy-based JNT/Bidmead era) so the tone is kind of all over the place
 

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Zarius said:
Of course it does. It's a TARDIS, and she's a time traveler now. Now that The Doctor's told her it needs to be located on the other side of the hill, it will be in time for the events of season six.

Ahhh ok. I see what you mean. Still a bit of an eye roll, but it's probably because I just wasn't a fan of the episode overall. Thanks for clarifying that plot point for me!
 

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asterixsmeagol said:
How would that have worked? We already saw the Seventh Doctor regenerate into the Eighth.
As much as I like John Hurt, I would have rather seen them just use McGann in that role. He deserves more screen time!

I felt the same way. When the finale prior to the 50th aired and we saw someone from behind, I stood up and shouted at the TV to let it be the 8th Doctor, then Hurt turned around and I was like WTF?

I loved the 50th special, it just leaves a knot in my stomach that McGann could've had his well deserved moment to be in the actual TV series and not left to do an online prequel special to make room for Hurt. ESPECIALLY since Eccleston refused to appear. His Doctor was treated better than McGann's who has been an awesome sport about getting shafted.
 
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