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Dark output solution

Cactus

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As I was nearing completion of my 2001 edit, it was pointed out that it looked too dark.
I had a look, and it turns out that what looks like this in Vegas:

vts011vosfb.png


changed into this in the MPEG2 output:

vts011vobb.png


The solution was to enter the project properties, switch "pixel format" to "32-bit floating point (fullrange)" and then change "Compositing gamma" to "2,222 (video)".

vegasproperties.png


I hope this will be useful to you if you run into this problem.
 

ThrowgnCpr

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what type of video file are you editing. And what is your workflow? are you rendering to mpg2 directly from Vegas, or saving to a file, and rendering elsewhere? My guess is that this is a change in your colorspace somehow, probably outside of Vegas.
 

Cactus

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Well... yes. I'm presenting you with a solution, not a problem. ;)
 

ThrowgnCpr

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haha, OK, well I saw they offered you a fix, but I didn't know if you actually applied it and it was successful at resolving your darkness issue. So I guess it was...
 

geminigod

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Cactus, the reason for that is because of the whole studio RGB vs. computer RGB issue. I also edit with 32 bit floating point (full range) even though it is more taxing on the computer because it resolves this issue by keeping computer RGB levels. But keep in mind that with that setting, if you want your video to look identical to the source, you should use 1.000 linear instead of 2,222 compositing gama.
 

JasonN

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geminigod said:
Cactus, the reason for that is because of the whole studio RGB vs. computer RGB issue. I also edit with 32 bit floating point (full range) even though it is more taxing on the computer because it resolves this issue by keeping computer RGB levels. But keep in mind that with that setting, if you want your video to look identical to the source, you should use 1.000 linear instead of 2,222 compositing gama.
^ This - I've had massive darkening issues with video in the past when I changed the gamma to "2.222 (video)", I also strongly recommend keeping it at "1.000 (linear)" when you're using a Pixel Format of 32-bit floating point.

EDIT: Based on the info provided, it sounds like there's a shift in the color range of the video occurring somewhere during the conversion from Lagarith to MPG-2. What are the render settings you're using in Vegas for MPG-2 Output, or are you using separate software like CCE to encode the MPG-2 video file?
 

ThrowgnCpr

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JasonN said:
EDIT: Based on the info provided, it sounds like there's a shift in the color range of the video occurring somewhere during the conversion from Lagarith to MPG-2. What are the render settings you're using in Vegas for MPG-2 Output, or are you using separate software like CCE to encode the MPG-2 video file?

This was exactly what I was thinking.
 

geminigod

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This site gets into more technical detail on this very confusing subject. I find it makes my brain hurt less to just use floating point (full range) with 1.0 linear. I'll take my chances on funky results with filters in exchange for not having to think about these dark issues. This way, what you see is what you get, and what you encode.

http://www.glennchan.info/articles/vegas/v8color/vegas-9-levels.htm
 

TV's Frink

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Man, I hope I don't have this issue...because I don't even get to touch those settings with Platinum instead of Pro...
 

Cactus

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Changing these settings change absolutely nothing in the video preview window of Vegas for me, all it does is make the MPG come out right. I don't use any external programs at all, I just encode to MPG directly in Vegas using "MainConcept MPEG-2".
 

geminigod

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The Vegas preview window displays in computer RGB, so you should be seeing the same levels as your output if you are inputting as 32 bit floating point full range. 8 bit or 32 bit video levels will display in the Vegas preview as darker than the actual output.
 

Cactus

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Ok, now I'm really confused. My input file is an 8-bit RGB Lagarith file. The preview window shows it correctly no matter what my project gamma settings are. Setting the project gamma only affect the rendered MPG output.
 

geminigod

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You are fine. Don't be confused. Your workflow sounds good. Only question is your use of 2,222 gamma over 1.0 linear.

Its really not even worth thinking about too much. There isn't much by way of logic with this issue and each codec handles the video differently. The best advice I can give is to just run a test experiment every time you are doing a workflow that is different than one you have tested previously (i.e. new software, new codec, different type of source material). Take a 30 second clip from start to finished product and see if it looks the same or different. If your product looks darker, chances are that some codec tweaked your RGB levels and you need to apply a studio RGB to computer RGB filter.

But again, this shouldn't even be an issue if you are using AVI with 32 bit full range.
 

Captain Khajiit

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geminigod said:
I also edit with 32 bit floating point (full range) even though it is more taxing on the computer because it resolves this issue by keeping computer RGB levels. But keep in mind that with that setting, if you want your video to look identical to the source, you should use 1.000 linear instead of 2,222 compositing gama.

TV's Frink said:
Man, I hope I don't have this issue...because I don't even get to touch those settings with Platinum instead of Pro...

I realize that these posts are old, but I recently bought a version of Vegas Studio to quickly make some non-fanedit-related videos for work and remembered this thread and the issue of these settings being disabled in the studio versions of Vegas. After badgering Sony for a couple of months, I was finally given the courtesy of a reply.

Sony Customer Service said:
Vegas Movie Studio HD Platinum 11.0 is at Pixel Format 8-bit, Compositing gamma 2.222.

I would imagine that all the studio versions default to the same settings: it seems that Sony considers the other settings an advanced feature. In my case, this is a non-issue because my videos are text based and improper handling of the levels and effects is inconsequential, but Vegas Movie Studio users might like to know this.

The finding is problematic for faneditors because, while editing in studio RGB might seem like the solution, codecs such as lagarith seem to decode to computer RGB levels in Vegas Movie Studio. At present, I'm not sure what the solution is (and don't much care) but if I find anything else out, I shall let everyone know.
 

TV's Frink

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I'm going to pretend I didn't read that, because I didn't understand it. :oops:
 

geminigod

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Bummer this issue hasn't been resolved with v11. This confusing issue always seemed illogical to me. Doesn't seem like it would be that big of a programming feat to scan a video stream and identify if it is using studio or computer RGB levels.
 

tranzor

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a year or two back there was a Friday the 13th edit (for the remake) that suffered the horrible dark output and part of the reason why I could not approve it for the site. It had to do with Sony vegas and though way past the point I am glad a fix for it has finally been posted since that editor was also only using Vegas as well and I knew somewhere some setting had to be changed, but no idea what
 

Captain Khajiit

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I have been experimenting over the last few days with workflows for both Pro and Movie Studio. First, I made a YUV clip. From that I made lossless test clips (using various codecs) with Avisynth – some that had been converted to RGB with studio levels and some that had been converted to RGB with computer RGB levels.

I fed each clip in turn into Vegas, applied various project settings, and tried rendering them out to the same codec. I compared the rendered clips to the original RGB test clips using an RGB parade and (after converting back to YV12 properly) a Y' wave form monitor.

The results were all absolutely identical frame-for-frame to the original clips. It didn't matter whether the project was set to 32-bit or 8-bit, whether computer or studio RGB was input, whether I used Movie Studio or Pro, or whether the gamma was 2.222 or 1.000 – as long as I converted back to YUV properly after rendering. Apart from basic dissolves, I haven't tested the effects yet, but it seems that some codecs, including lagarith, are passed through without the levels being affected, regardless of whether or not they expect computer RGB.

In my opinion, the dark output that some editors have experienced has little or nothing to do with the compositing gamma. It's more likely a result of people's not keeping track of levels during their workflow e.g. editing in computer RGB and rendering to a delivery format without applying a levels adjustment. The result would be crushed blacks and blown-out whites. (I've seen this in a number of DVDs made by people rendering to MPEG-2 in Vegas and not rendering out a lossless AVI first.)

Glenn Chan says the effects in Vegas ought to look fine in computer RGB with a compositing gamma of 2.222. In fact, he recommends using a gamma of 2.222 on his site, partly because, with 1.000, the effects don't work in the same way and partly because the color corrector does not behave normally. It's nice to have the greater precision of 32-bit in Pro, but I'm not sure how much difference it really makes because Vegas does not have a full linear workflow with color management.

As I see it, unless one absolutely has to have linear light processing for dissolves or 32-bit precision one can safely edit in Movie Studio without needing Pro.
 
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