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Question for all Mac Star Wars Fan Editors

L8wrtr

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Hello fello Mac Fan Editors!

I'm a noob, so please bare with me. I'm working on a relatively new iMac dual core with plenty of memory (for now). I am editing in Final Cut Pro, and have most of the bells and whistles such as DVD Studio, Compresser etc..

The problem I'm having seems specific to at least Star Wars Episode 3, but I'm guessing I'll run into this with any other SW movie I plan to work on. I've tried various methods to rip the movie, Mac the Ripper, Disassembler, Toast etc.. all introduced mis-matched audio/video and sometimes fps issues (24fps instead of 29.blah blah.) I finally discovered a program that I believe Mollo listed as Wondershare DVD Ripper. When I purchased it wasn't listed as wondershare, but the screen shots are an exact match. This was the only application I could find that was able to create synchronized a/v files, (and there was much rejoicing.)

The problem came in with regard to the opening crawl. LFL did something funky where the opening crawl is literally a spliced together rotation of English/French/Spanish clips of 2 seconds or so, so that you see and hear the same 2 seconds 3 times in a row, but one is in English, then in French, and then in Spanish (the audio sounds the same, but the crawl is in each language). I'm assuming that something in the VOB or whatever (I'm a noob) tells the DVD player how to parse this section so that we only see the language we have selected.

As I did this before I knew of this forum, my end-around solution was to take the intro clips that I had pulled the crawl from Mac the Ripper (which didn't run into this problem). Because the clip is short enough and lacks dialogue, I was able to splice it into the timeline without any synching issues.

My question is, has anyone else run into this funky issue, and if so, how did you deal with it? I see that there are dozens of SW fanedits, so I can't be alone in this, but then again, I have no clue as to what the PC crowd sees.

I have a separate question regarding finalizing my project and will post it separately.

thanks in advance!!
 

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L8wrtr said:
Hello fello Mac Fan Editors!

I'm a noob, so please bare with me. I'm working on a relatively new iMac dual core with plenty of memory (for now). I am editing in Final Cut Pro, and have most of the bells and whistles such as DVD Studio, Compresser etc..

The problem I'm having seems specific to at least Star Wars Episode 3, but I'm guessing I'll run into this with any other SW movie I plan to work on. I've tried various methods to rip the movie, Mac the Ripper, Disassembler, Toast etc.. all introduced mis-matched audio/video and sometimes fps issues (24fps instead of 29.blah blah.)
FYI the clips should be 24fps not 29fps.
I finally discovered a program that I believe Mollo listed as Wondershare DVD Ripper. When I purchased it wasn't listed as wondershare, but the screen shots are an exact match. This was the only application I could find that was able to create synchronized a/v files, (and there was much rejoicing.)
what exactly was the workflow? what did wondershare create? a rip or actual quicktime files? I use fairmount with dvd2oneX to rip and Mpegstreamclip for the quicktimes.
The problem came in with regard to the opening crawl. LFL did something funky where the opening crawl is literally a spliced together rotation of English/French/Spanish clips of 2 seconds or so, so that you see and hear the same 2 seconds 3 times in a row, but one is in English, then in French, and then in Spanish (the audio sounds the same, but the crawl is in each language). I'm assuming that something in the VOB or whatever (I'm a noob) tells the DVD player how to parse this section so that we only see the language we have selected.
I never knew that there were language crawls. these were actual crawls? not subtitles? could you post a video? this would mean an elaborate architecture for the dvd to branch out.
As I did this before I knew of this forum, my end-around solution was to take the intro clips that I had pulled the crawl from Mac the Ripper (which didn't run into this problem). Because the clip is short enough and lacks dialogue, I was able to splice it into the timeline without any synching issues.

My question is, has anyone else run into this funky issue, and if so, how did you deal with it? I see that there are dozens of SW fanedits, so I can't be alone in this, but then again, I have no clue as to what the PC crowd sees.
As far as I know a VOB is just a container for a stream of video. I've never herad of a single VOB containing more than one stream. but I am open to miracles.
I have a separate question regarding finalizing my project and will post it separately.

thanks in advance!!
 

L8wrtr

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The problem I'm having seems specific to at least Star Wars Episode 3, but I'm guessing I'll run into this with any other SW movie I plan to work on. I've tried various methods to rip the movie, Mac the Ripper, Disassembler, Toast etc.. all introduced mis-matched audio/video and sometimes fps issues (24fps instead of 29.blah blah.)
FYI the clips should be 24fps not 29fps.

Hrmm. If so I'll have to re-edit the full project, which I'm not opposed to as I'm looking for the best possible quality. The resulting image on my DVD at 29fps looked fine as far as there was no jitterring or uneven flow. It just kind of looked like it was just a tiny bit soft focus, or your glasses were in need of a new rx, but perhaps this is part of the overall resolution problem?

I finally discovered a program that I believe Mollo listed as Wondershare DVD Ripper. When I purchased it wasn't listed as wondershare, but the screen shots are an exact match. This was the only application I could find that was able to create synchronized a/v files, (and there was much rejoicing.)
what exactly was the workflow? what did wondershare create? a rip or actual quicktime files? I use fairmount with dvd2oneX to rip and Mpegstreamclip for the quicktimes.

Unfortunately I was trying all kinds of things to get workable files and by the end of it I didn't take the time to document the various workflows (lesson learned). When I sit in front of my mac tonight I'm sure I can piece it all together. But I believe it went something like this: wondershare created a Rip which then dropped the VOB through Toast to create a DV. My memory is fuzzy as I can't recall how I separated out the AC3 file, but it might have been streamclip? Once I had the AC3 file I then usedbd4go to get an aiff so that I had an DV and aiff. I imported both into FPC, unlinked the audio in the DV and deleted it, then dropped in the aiff. Everything synched perfect, the only flaw was the odd crawl, and the at most of the chapter pionts anywhere from 6-8 frames would get repeated, along with a strange chirp and silence in the audio for a corrsopnding number of frames, but at a phazed interval. I just soldiered through and deleted each and it always lined up perfect once gone.

The problem came in with regard to the opening crawl. LFL did something funky where the opening crawl is literally a spliced together rotation of English/French/Spanish clips of 2 seconds or so, so that you see and hear the same 2 seconds 3 times in a row, but one is in English, then in French, and then in Spanish (the audio sounds the same, but the crawl is in each language). I'm assuming that something in the VOB or whatever (I'm a noob) tells the DVD player how to parse this section so that we only see the language we have selected.
I never knew that there were language crawls. these were actual crawls? not subtitles? could you post a video? this would mean an elaborate architecture for the dvd to branch out.

Definately not subtitles, the crawl itself was done in the 3 languages. I'm not sophisticated enough to know whether I was seeing 3 distinct files being intercut, or one file intercut, that the DVD player parses, but it definately rotated through each language in rougly 2 second steps. The only time I saw this was when ripping from wondershare. Mac the Ripper, deconstructor, Toast 10 and I think streamclip all handled the crawl like we'd expect, but I could never generate audio in sync for the full movie, so I just incorporated the two. I've neer posted anything before but I'll try and generate a clip asap (as life allows) and put it on youtube. It freaked me out when I first saw it.

I guess really what I'm hoping to find is, if someone has edited a Star Wars movie from DVD in Final Cut, what was the NTSC-based workflow that they used to get it into FCP where the audio is in synch, and has the opening crawl without a problem, and then back into a DVD that is of acceptable quality. I understand how the editing principles of FPC work, but it's just these silly little details that determine the technical quality of the final product that I'm screwing up! (The artistic quality, well that's on me :) ) If there is a way to get there not using wondershare, I'm open to it.
 

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I would say to you that your image problem is due to interlace artifacts created when you forced a 24fps into a 29fps clip.
you can check this on your dvd. look for an action sequence and then step in and go frame by frame. every frame should be crisp and clear, like a photo. if it's messy with what appears to be scanlines, you can facepalm.
also examine scene cuts. the scene cuts should be clean. one frame is the previous scene, the next frame is the next scene. but if it is an interlace problem, because of the forced 3:2 pulldown some cuts won't be clean.
they will look like a one frame dissolve. in other words the cut will have 2 images interlaced.
put in your original dvd and double check. you will certainly see the difference.

As far as the workflow, the ripper is not the problem. these questions have been addressed before and there are tutorials available if you look for them.
good luck.
 

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The problem with the crawl is simply that some rippers don't recognise the 'alternate angle' portion correctly, so what you're seeing is all the alt angles at the same time. (More or less.) It's reasonably common practice to use the alt angles for multiple language opening/closing credits.

You need to re-rip the film, but make sure you only rip angle 1.
 

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L8wrtr said:
-------------------
WIP
Star Wars Revenge of the Sith: The L8wrtr Redux
Star Wars Revenge of the Sith: The L8wrtr Redux Extended
Star Wars Revenge of the Sith: The L8wrtr Extreme Edit

Planned
Star Wars The Phantom Menace: Phantom Edit L8wrtr Redux
Star Wars Attack of the Clones: Attack of the Phantom L8wrtr Redux
Star Wars Return of the Jedi: L8wrtr Redux
:shock: Are you trying to kill me? :wink:
 

L8wrtr

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Uncanny Antman said:
The problem with the crawl is simply that some rippers don't recognise the 'alternate angle' portion correctly, so what you're seeing is all the alt angles at the same time. (More or less.) It's reasonably common practice to use the alt angles for multiple language opening/closing credits.

You need to re-rip the film, but make sure you only rip angle 1.


Ahh.. ok, this makes things much more clear. I noticed that with one of the aps, the english track kept jumping around depending on which portion of the movie (it broke into 7 chunks or reels as I thought of them) and they they rotated, English, Spanish, French, Commentary, and repeat. Different rippers are interpreting/handling it better/worse than others. THANK YOU!!
 

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TV's Frink said:
L8wrtr said:
-------------------
WIP
Star Wars Revenge of the Sith: The L8wrtr Redux
Star Wars Revenge of the Sith: The L8wrtr Redux Extended
Star Wars Revenge of the Sith: The L8wrtr Extreme Edit

Planned
Star Wars The Phantom Menace: Phantom Edit L8wrtr Redux
Star Wars Attack of the Clones: Attack of the Phantom L8wrtr Redux
Star Wars Return of the Jedi: L8wrtr Redux
:shock: Are you trying to kill me? :wink:

We'll see what I can actually pull off. First things first, quality output worthy of this group. :D
 

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Now that I've had time to compare files, I am not convinced it's a fps issue, there are no crossed frames at all as KBM described, but what I am seeing now that I have a chance to look at the screen up close is good old-fashioned compression, jpeg style like you'd see in a crappy web image. Classic grid pattern with artifacts along edges. If my understanding of 3-2 pulldown is correct (and admittedly, it might not be) this does not affect/impose algorithmic compression so-much as just inserting duplicate frames in order to get the film from 24 to 29. But again, I'm a noob.

But that doesn't resolve my problem. I just peeked at Adywan's work and his work lacks any discernible compression beyond what is already on the source material, so damnit, I'll figure this out!
I'll review the applications that Mollo listed and document my workflow and try exporting small clips to see what I get.

Thanks for all the input so far!
 

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L8wrtr said:
Now that I've had time to compare files, I am not convinced it's a fps issue
You don't have to be convinced. You created the clips. are they 24fps or 29fps?
If 24 (actually it should be 23.976) interlace is not a problem.
If 29, then you got a problem.

But maybe it's something else? what compressor settings have you set in FC for your seq? (animation? jpeg? dv50? PAL? ntsc? other?)
 

L8wrtr

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Thank you for your patience with me here KBM, I have much to learn. Even more, I have much to unlearn.

The files in my current project are definitely 29. I began this project before joining the forum and relied on the help from a friend who edits for a living (self-taught editor), but he typically uses film shot in camera etc.. he doesn't do fan-edits or work from material from DVDs. He was specific in his opinion that 29 was the way to go to avoid drop-down problems.

Based on your comments and Boon's guide regarding fps, I have to take a step back from the project, start over and go a bit more slowly. I'm comfortable with the editing process itself; it's a visual process which makes sense to me and FPC is amazing to work in.

The hard part is, and I'm guessing that like many noobs, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the concepts of digital files, formats and process; the best/proper way to rip files with the right settings so that what I manipulate in FPC is the right stuff. fps, Drop-Down, codecs, DV, DVPRO, M2V,MP4, AC3, AIFF.. it's a file-format and process soup that I am slowly digesting.

It doesn't help that 90% of the community seems to be PC-based which creates a wealth of how-to's and step-by-steps a la ADM's amazing guide, and I'm on Mac Island :p

The software I've crammed into my machine to date:
Ripping Software
Mac the Ripper
DVD2OneX
DVD Ripper by iOrg Soft (looks like an near copy of wondershare: http://www.iorgsoft.com/how-to-rip/dvd-movie-for-mac/)

Conversion Software
MPEG Streamclip
Toast Titanium 10
bd2go (audio only)

Editing Software
FPC (and all it's friends; Sountrack, Compressor, DVD Studio, Color and Motion, way more than I can handle at the moment)
iMovie (hahahaha)
Audacity

Based on what I've read, I should be able to do a workflow of
1) Rip (MTR or iOrgSoft)
2) Convert vid files into DV, audio to AIFF (MPEG Streamclip or Toast)
3) Import into FPC, do my thing, maybe work with soundtrack and/or audacity to do some audio work.
4) From FPC, send to Compressor to output m2v and AC3 files
5) Import into DVD Studio, do whatever chapter/menu stuff I want, and burn DVD

Am I far from the mark here or do I at least have the fundamentals of the process down? If this is right, what settings should I be looking for during each step so that I don't frak myself along the way? Streamclip seemed to have multiple DV options, which do I need or do they matter? Is it always preferable to produce one full clip of the entire movie, or is it OK to have the ripping or converting software convert only the smaller chunks based on the VOB files?

Sorry to be such a noob. I'll get this though.. Do or do not. There is no try.
 

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Wait until you start getting into HD/bluray. :eek:
No worries. we all had to start somewhere.
For ripping i use fairmount which is pretty good.
as far as what to do after the rip, follow this guide that I wrote for hebrides.
this works for me but I'm sure you will experiment and find your own way.
cheers!
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=7234&hilit=mpeg+streamclip

EDIT: I do one clip of the entire movie that includes stereo audio.
Now as you delve into our jungle you will meet some that desire/demand full 5.1 mix.
(especially the StarWarnauts) i personally have not delved since i don't have a 5.1 monitoring set-up. Mpeg streamclip can give you discreet tracks for a 5.1 mix.
But do your homework and pray to CROM!
 

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That is the sound of my jaw dropping and heart exploding with as much non-gay admiration as I can possibly have for another guy right now.

As I have a 6 page mid-term paper to write tonight (why did I think going back to school at my age was a good idea?) I won't be able to try this out right away, but it looks like you've just saved me hours of experimentation.. and not the good kind.

You are right, even though I swore when I started that I was not going to get into the discrete sound channels, I can already see that I'm heading down that path...

Until I hit my next brick wall, a thousand thank you's.
 

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killbillme said:
EDIT: I do one clip of the entire movie that includes stereo audio.
Now as you delve into our jungle you will meet some that desire/demand full 5.1 mix.
(especially the StarWarnauts)
What is with those lame asses anyway?

:wink:
 

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So you're a writer? back in school?
I have got to introduce you to my friend hebrides. He teaches english.
wouldn't it be funny if he was one of your professors?!
he's also a Mac and fanediting addict.
check out his extensive post and introduce yourself.
Tell him I sent you but don't buy him a drink. :p
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=6767&start=720
and how old are you?

TV's Frink: Did you like the sobriquet? I made it up myself.
 

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I'm waiting for a film version of Jason and the StarWarnauts before I answer that question.
 

L8wrtr

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I'm staring 38 in the face this Saturday. My first pass through college I studied Graphic Communications. Wasn't passionate about it in the slightest, but I was competent enough at it, and more importantly, it got me into the school I wanted, yes, I had my priorities straight.

Fast-forward to about 18 months ago and I was a victim of the recession. I decided to go back to school and get a degree in history. Very useful, but hopefully some day I'll be a teacher at some level when the economy picks up and legislatures chose to value education, if not my professors have encouraged me to become a true historian and author, based on my writings in class - I go through National University and use their online classes, so EVERYTHING is in writing. I was fortunate enough to land a job at a great company doing tech support for web sites. Good money, no stress, and I don't take my work home with me. It'll do until I find my new career.

The handle L8wrtr is something I picked up about 12 years ago when my uncle got me into screen-writing. I thought it was a catchy/descriptive, but it's just kind of stuck. Before that I hadn't done anything creative since high school band, but I've never pulled off a full length script and like most writers I have too many ideas rolling around my skull and there is always something 'else' to do with my time. I've found that my writing for history classes fills that writing void.

But Fan Editing.. this has quickly become an obsession like I've never known.. I'm an addict already. We'll see how it develops. Thanks again for your help.

That is an impressive project by hebrides, I'll be sure to say howdy.
 

L8wrtr

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Update: I tried your work-flow using a different movie. I used fairmount to rip, streamclip to convert with your settings, did a super quick editing job, compressed and burned. The result is beautiful, well, it looks as good as the original anyhow, but that's not saying much. The Black Hole didn't exactly get the make-over that it deserved ;)

But I'm still in major problem, no matter how I rip Revenge of the Sith, I can't get away from the multi-language opening crawl. I'll try and post a video of it tomorrow, but whether I use Mac the Ripper or Fairmount, the opening keeps alternating between angles.

At least I have one problem solved!
 

L8wrtr

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In Mac the Ripper I've done both a full disk extraction as well as a Title Only - Main Title, I still get the mixed angles.
In Fairmount I couldn't figure out any options, it just seemed to do the whole thing and you copied it all to your desktop. Documentation on it was rather sketchy, but again, mixed angles.

I have a strange little ripper that was given to me OSEx 0.0110 a1 that does seem to be able to rip the opening segment without the alternating, but I've only been able to output straight m2v and AC3 files which have had sync problems. I'll run some more tests with OSEx though as it really is not intuitive and there may be some options I'm not catching.
 
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