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Avengers: Endgame

Collipso

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yeah i've been listening to that since i came out of the theater :D
 

Jrzag42

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The joke with Hulk and the elevator was totally stolen from the 2005 Fantastic Four.
 

MusicEd921

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jrWHAG42 said:
The joke with Hulk and the elevator was totally stolen from the 2005 Fantastic Four.

and worked just as well I feel.  That movie gets so much hate, but I liked them both except for 2's cop-out ending.
 

Jrzag42

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musiced921 said:
jrWHAG42 said:
The joke with Hulk and the elevator was totally stolen from the 2005 Fantastic Four.

and worked just as well I feel.  That movie gets so much hate, but I liked them both except for 2's cop-out ending.

 Thank you so much, I love those movies but it seems a lot of people don't. But regardless, I guess the joke is more important here because it affects the plot, though I feel it's executed better in Fantastic 4. Hulk seems to childish, even for Hulk standards.
 

Gaith

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My review in a nutshell:


... Though I guess that, as the final shot faded out, I was the only one yelping "But what about Sousa?!"   :p

I'm sure that, by portion of runtime, Endgame is the quietest and most low-key of the MCU movies so far, and thanks goodness. The final battle was made even more epic for having such a gradual, unhurried setup.

I really only have two quibbles, neither of which are actually complaints, as neither would have improved the movie in any way. One, I kinda feel Natasha might have thrived post-Snap? It's not as though she was ever at home in the world as it was, so maybe everyone getting as depressed as her might have helped her fit in. And Two, wouldn't Captain America have become a mega-celebrity/almost cult-like figure of worship in such troubled times? If he absolutely refused to be president, surely thousands would be flocking to his self-help groups at the very least. :D

Finally, I legitimately squee'd, waving hands and all, when James D'Arcy's Jarvis appeared and made MCU history by being the first TV character to get promoted to the majors. My biggest fanboy moment since Cyclops appeared at the end of DoFP.

An easy grade: A for moi.
 

asterixsmeagol

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Gaith said:
James D'Arcy's Jarvis appeared and made MCU history by being the first TV character to get promoted to the majors.

But they went back to the other Howard Stark
 

ChainsawAsh

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asterixsmeagol said:
Gaith said:
James D'Arcy's Jarvis appeared and made MCU history by being the first TV character to get promoted to the majors.

But they went back to the other Howard Stark

That's because Slattery has always been the older Howard since Iron Man 2. Slattery came back for Ant-Man and Civil War, too, since those were all older Howards. If they'd traveled to 1955 instead of 1970, they would have used Cooper instead of Slattery. And if the CGI aging/de-aging had been a thing when Iron Man 2 and Cap 1 were being made, they'd probably have used one actor, but at the time two different actors for different ages was the best option.
 

Gaith

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^ That doesn't bother me. The same actor appeared in previous scenes with Tony, so it made sense to use him there.
 

MusicEd921

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Better to use the older one anyway given that point in his life compared to the younger carefree one
 

asterixsmeagol

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The change from Gerard Sanders in Iron Man to John Slattery in Iron Man 2 and on didn't really bother me because they at least have similar facial structures, but the casting of Dominic Cooper in Captain America and Agent Carter always struck me as strange because his face is so much wider.
 

Gaith

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... More Avengers, more problems:

 

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So I finally saw this last week, after what felt like 16 years after everyone else saw it. Overall, it was very satisfying. Some stuff didn’t make sense, and there was some of the same stuff I didn’t like from Infinity War. But when the movie works right, it works better than anything else ever made in the MCU.

Random thoughts, mostly in chronological order:

--I would have liked it better if the first 20 minutes of this were the last 20 minutes of Infinity War. But I can see why the filmmakers preferred a cliffhanger to bring people back.

--With how much Feige has hyped Captain Marvel as the new center of the MCU, I was afraid that she would get overused in the film (not that I don’t like her; I just feel like we hardly know her yet). But she was in this movie just the right amount of time to do several important things without overshadowing the characters we were saying goodbye to.

--I thought Infinity War was a noisy mess lacking in characterization, but this film slows down enough to take time for its characters to process what they’re going through. The first hour of this is beautiful.

--I disliked Bruce-who-couldn’t-change in the last movie, so I loved Bruce-and-Hulk-being- reconciled-together in this one. Also loved outcast Steve fully returning to his role as Captain America in this one.

--Is this the biggest cast of all time assembled for any movie? I mean, there might have been bigger casts filled with extras, but is there any other movie that has more parts for notable characters and actors? We even get cameos by young CGI Howard Stark and young CGI Hank Pym, not to mention wordless cameos by Jane Foster and Nick Fury. 

--Speaking of Howard Stark, I’ve become so used to his appearance in Captain America and Agent Carter that it threw me when they used a different actor for this. I had to look it up to find out it’s the same actor from Iron Man 2 and Civil War

--I genuinely don’t remember: Has Thor never killed someone before? I get that most of the people close to him died (indeed, most of the people from his home realm died), but his sadness mostly seemed to focus on having killed Thanos. Nobody seems sad later in the movie when Tony kills Thanos.

--Did anyone else find it funny when they kept assigning Earth years to other planets and dimensions (i.e., “Asgard 2013”)? I get that this was the only way to keep the audience straight on when things were happening, but it seemed funny to think that distant planets would use an Earth calendar. That said, I’m going to use the same dates to keep track of things below.

--I’m always a sucker for a time travel story, but this one (as fun as it was) was confusing. I know they said “time travel doesn’t work like that” regarding Back to the Future and others, but they presented no clear, cohesive alternate set of rules. And so we’re left with weird contradictions like this:

* I get the metaphor of Nebula killing her past self. But shouldn’t she have blinked out of existence when she did that?
* Why did the Avengers decide that the snap should be undone to the current timeline (five years after the snap occurred)? If the problem is that they don’t want to mess with history, how is that any different than going back and changing things in the first place? 
* On that same note, it’s 2014 Thanos that they killed at the end of this movie. Doesn’t that mean he was never around to snap half the population out of existence in 2018? Shouldn’t that have reset everything?
* After it’s all over, Peter Parker walks into class and sees his classmates. But shouldn’t everyone else be five years older and already graduated from high school? Or are we meant to think that coincidentally every single person Peter knew happened to be snapped and then unsnapped? (I haven’t seen Far from Home yet, which may answer some of these questions.)
* We see 2014 Gamora still alive at the end, but then she isn’t on the ship with everyone else. So...is she not going to be part of Guardians 3? I mean, Natasha’s apparently not coming back because of the Soul Stone thing (except in her movie, which I’m guessing will be a prequel). If Gamora isn’t coming back, that’s kind of a big deal, but no one is talking about it. And if she is coming back, then why can’t Natasha?
* The heroes kept using Stark and Pym tech to travel through time. But once they had defeated Thanos, they had the Time Stone. Wouldn’t they be able to undo a few bad things that way? And if one can’t travel through time with the Time Stone, then what does it actually do? (Granted, I realize that, from a storytelling point of view, it would feel like a cheat if every bad thing just got easily done. But usually, time-travel stories have more clear rules or limits. I didn’t see anything preventing these characters from reversing bad stuff.)

--Hooray for Jarvis appearing from TV Land! I didn’t even realize it was the first crossover ever from TV to film, until someone else pointed it out.

--Thanos is still the worst part of the movie for me. I already ranted about him in my Infinity War review on this site, so I don’t want to go it over again if possible. But I loved this movie for two hours until he came back. The climax is still great, but Thanos is fingernails on a chalkboard for me every time he speaks.

-- I forgot that Vision had been killed normally rather than snapped. I was totally expecting to see him at the climax.

--Three best lines of dialogue in the movie, in order of how awesome they were: 
3) ”On your left.”
2) ”I am inevitable.” “And I...am...Iron Man.”
”Avengers...assemble.” (I waited four movies for that! When I finally heard it, I actually jumped out of my chair and said, “Yes!” My wife thought it was hilarious.)

--Pepper Potts in an Iron Man suit? Amazing!

-- Spider-Man previously refused to put his suit in Kill Mode. Why did he do it now? Was he fighting robots instead of people?

--Unfortunately, I had been spoiled that Tony died in this movie. But it actually worked out surprisingly to my benefit in the long run: Since I knew it was true, and not going to be undone a minute later by time travel/magic/what have you, I legitimately got choked up. I think I even shed a few tears. It was a powerful moment.

--Sam is now no longer Falcon; he’s Captain America. That’s what I honestly expected. So why does Disney+ have a series in the works called Falcon and Winter Solider?

--As much as I loved the Agent Carter series and the new characters created for it, I’m oddly at peace with the series’ cancellation now. If the show had continued, all effort would have been put behind Peggy’s new relationship on that show. But now, Steve and Peggy are together. They finally got their dance. That’s a happy ending I didn’t even realize I wanted. 

--I had previously commented that the MCU didn’t reuse its themes enough. This time, I caught Cap’s 1940s theme and (of course) the regular Avengers theme. The end credits mentioned Doc Strange’s theme and Ant-Man’s theme. Did anyone catch anything else? 

So, again, very satisfying closing of the saga. Looking forward to catching up belatedly on both Far from Home and Captain Marvel, and looking forward to what else Feige and co. want to bring us.
 

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Replying... spoilers, but it's out on home media now, so...
 
TomH1138 said:
--Speaking of Howard Stark, I’ve become so used to his appearance in Captain America and Agent Carter that it threw me when they used a different actor for this. I had to look it up to find out it’s the same actor from Iron Man 2 and Civil War
The first scene of Ant-Man, too.

--I genuinely don’t remember: Has Thor never killed someone before? I get that most of the people close to him died (indeed, most of the people from his home realm died), but his sadness mostly seemed to focus on having killed Thanos. Nobody seems sad later in the movie when Tony kills Thanos.
Thor has killed tons, and is proud of that. He isn't sad about having killed Thanos; he's ashamed of having failed to stop the Snap and thus lost to him in the first place, and depressed over the fact that subsequently killing him didn't undo that defeat one bit.

* Why did the Avengers decide that the snap should be undone to the current timeline (five years after the snap occurred)? If the problem is that they don’t want to mess with history, how is that any different than going back and changing things in the first place?
Tony said they didn't have the right to take away the five years people lived, or undo the lives (including his daughter's) created since then, and Steve agreed.

* On that same note, it’s 2014 Thanos that they killed at the end of this movie. Doesn’t that mean he was never around to snap half the population out of existence in 2018?
The movie's one consistent time travel rule is it doesn't operate by BttF rules.

--Pepper Potts in an Iron Man suit? Amazing!
Already done in IM3. ;)

-- Spider-Man previously refused to put his suit in Kill Mode. Why did he do it now? Was he fighting robots instead of people?
Aliens aren't humans. :p

--Sam is now no longer Falcon; he’s Captain America. That’s what I honestly expected. So why does Disney+ have a series in the works called Falcon and Winter Solider?
The shield symbolizes him taking up Steve's mantle, but it doesn't automatically make him Captain America. He won't be Captain America until he himself decides to take up the name. My guess is the series will end with him doing so.
 

TomH1138

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Gaith said:
Replying... spoilers, but it's out on home media now, so...
 
TomH1138 said:
--Speaking of Howard Stark, I’ve become so used to his appearance in Captain America and Agent Carter that it threw me when they used a different actor for this. I had to look it up to find out it’s the same actor from Iron Man 2 and Civil War
The first scene of Ant-Man, too. Ooh, I forgot about that! Good call.

--I genuinely don’t remember: Has Thor never killed someone before? I get that most of the people close to him died (indeed, most of the people from his home realm died), but his sadness mostly seemed to focus on having killed Thanos. Nobody seems sad later in the movie when Tony kills Thanos.
Thor has killed tons, and is proud of that. He isn't sad about having killed Thanos; he's ashamed of having failed to stop the Snap and thus lost to him in the first place, and depressed over the fact that subsequently killing him didn't undo that defeat one bit. That makes sense. That's what I thought would be the reason, but somehow the dialogue threw me off. 

* Why did the Avengers decide that the snap should be undone to the current timeline (five years after the snap occurred)? If the problem is that they don’t want to mess with history, how is that any different than going back and changing things in the first place?
Tony said they didn't have the right to take away the five years people lived, or undo the lives (including his daughter's) created since then, and Steve agreed. Ooh, right! Tony's daughter. I get that now.

* On that same note, it’s 2014 Thanos that they killed at the end of this movie. Doesn’t that mean he was never around to snap half the population out of existence in 2018?
The movie's one consistent time travel rule is it doesn't operate by BttF rules. Heh. Yeah, again, I don't mind them not being BTTF, but they should have made it clearer how things did work. Oh, well. 

--Pepper Potts in an Iron Man suit? Amazing!
Already done in IM3. ;) Oh, I think I remember that now. At first, I only remembered her being Cool Mutant Woman, and then having her powers surgically removed at the end of the movie. Pepper hadn't had a chance to do much in the Avengers movies, so I'm glad she got to do something here. 

-- Spider-Man previously refused to put his suit in Kill Mode. Why did he do it now? Was he fighting robots instead of people?
Aliens aren't humans. :p  Heh. I guess. They are still sentient life forms, though. I mean, Captain America killed Nazis, so I'm not judging Spidey. It only seems weird when they set up a rule for him but then don't follow it through. I won't lose sleep over it or anything, though. 

--Sam is now no longer Falcon; he’s Captain America. That’s what I honestly expected. So why does Disney+ have a series in the works called Falcon and Winter Solider?
The shield symbolizes him taking up Steve's mantle, but it doesn't automatically make him Captain America. He won't be Captain America until he himself decides to take up the name. My guess is the series will end with him doing so. Yeah, I agree--it seems very likely that's how the series will end.

Great responses. Thanks for your insights!
 

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If I could make changes to the movie that were minimally invasive yet fixed some key issues (in my opinion) then these are the changes I would make. This is just one fans opinion so take it all with a grain of salt.

1) I could not reconcile that Ironman apparently figured out time travel alone in his basement after having emphasized how impossible it was. A mere suggestion gave him the means to do something that I guess he hadn't thought to try in the last 5 years?? 
Solution: Stark should have been there with banner and antman since antman had the tech and experience with the quantum realm while banner and stark were already established as the brains of the team, it should have taken all of them to figure out such a complex solution.

2) There was a seemingly obvious set-up for Hulk to get his revenge on Thanos but the movie never delivered. In fact we barely even saw a single punch from "the strongest avenger". Since his professor hulk form was apparently well mannered enough to hear of natasha's death and stay calm the epic revenge moment should have happened on the battlefield.
secondarily: I have another issue with scarlet witch apparently being able to take thanos in a 1v1 when so many other super-powered team ups couldn't do it. It's hard not to ask, well then why didn't she do that earlier, or later, since she was shown healthy enough for the girl power moment a minute later.
Solution: The scene that showed thanos vs scarlet witch should have featured Hulk as well in a 2v1. This is an interesting team up since last time they were together witch was his enemy this would show how far hulk has come. Also, since that scene features an epic moment of getting revenge for a fallen loved one it would have been poetic if Hulk were also there to avenge a fallen loved one (natasha). This also helps maintain the power levels by requiring 2 of the strongest avengers to beat on the big bad before he calls for help. Lastly, this allows fans to get the "hulk-out" moment against thanos without having to take him to plant-hulk or world breaker level and discount all the character growth they built. 

3) When Hulk is first introduced he simply explains away the moment when he became professor hulk instead of allowing us to see the transformation. He also seems to have an attitude that completely breaks the tone of the movie and fits neither hulk nor banner's individual personalities. Why would they make him so cheery after such a somber scene?
Solution: Just let us see the moment when he entered the lab and began the tests, add the part where he starts to figure it out and leave the audience wondering if it was successful before introducing the diner scene. Or even add in the scene that they did where hulk does the building rescue before the diner scene. Then make him just a bit more serious at least until the kids enter the scene.

4) I would remove the fan service girl power moment entirely. I have no problem with captain marvel or any of the other women of marvel but this moment was so obviously fabricated as a social justice thing that I literally felt removed from the movie in the moment. I was immediately reminded that this was a movie/stage to make statements rather then being immersed in the world like I was up until then. It was also completely impractical to have the time and space in war for all the women to line up like that. It made no sense that captain marvel would need their help when she literally just flew though an alien ship with ease. It is also in this scene that Captain marvel is literally holding the gauntlet and I have to ask "why not just put it on". Seriously what an obvious miss.
Marvel filmed a moment with the team gathering to talk about a plan during the war but they removed it because it took away from the battle, WELL, this scene did exactly that. It would also cut down on some film time and allow for some of the edits I made above and specifically for the one below.

5) Captain marvel did not have enough screen time and while the reason she was away made a lot of sense it would have been better to actually see it.
Solution: Add a scene inside the moment where black widow is talking to rocket, war machine, and marvel over holograph coms. The scene would feature captain marvel actually off world helping other species, even battling and protecting them. This gives her more screen time and helps audiences see why she wasn't there for so long during the rest of the movie.
 

addiesin

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kkimble said:
If I could make changes to the movie that were minimally invasive yet fixed some key issues (in my opinion) then these are the changes I would make. This is just one fans opinion so take it all with a grain of salt.

1) Stark

2) 2v1

3) professor hulk

4) girl power

5) Captain marvel

I liked how 1, 3 and 4 were in the film, thought they fit fine.

Other than cutting the scene you don't like in point 4, these don't sound like things that can be done in a fanedit.
 

kkimble

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addiesin said:
kkimble said:
If I could make changes to the movie that were minimally invasive yet fixed some key issues (in my opinion) then these are the changes I would make. This is just one fans opinion so take it all with a grain of salt.

1) Stark

2) 2v1

3) professor hulk

4) girl power

5) Captain marvel

I liked how 1, 3 and 4 were in the film, thought they fit fine.

Other than cutting the scene you don't like in point 4, these don't sound like things that can be done in a fanedit.
Well yeah I knew that it couldn't be done as a fan edit but I was just dreaming about what I wanted it to be.
 

MusicEd921

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I can't for the life of me understand the problem people have with the girl power scene.  It seems to be men who feel this way, but women, even superheroes over the years, are always out there with their boobs hanging out and short skirts fighting the bad guys until a man of some sort helps.  We're FINALLY in an age where female superheroes are not just eye candy, but can stand on their own without men always helping them.  To be honest, the Marvel franchise has ignored all of the women superheroes until now (and Black Widow is getting a movie NOW after so many years?!?!?!).

Little boys and girls need to see that men and women are equal and that goes with there being super-powered beings.  No one complains of the closeups of the Avengers Assemble charge with it being led by ALL men, so why complain about giving a shout out to all of the super-powered women without calling it a social justice pander or to appease snowflakes?  It's time we had more female representation in the superhero world without it always being damsels in distress.  

Sorry if this is too much of a rant, but I'm just not understanding the hate this short 10-20 second scene gets from men.
 
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