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Venom
- Thread starter Zarius
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Saw the trailer this morning. Thought it was terrible. Could have been for any movie.
Canon Editor
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Yeah, that’s kind of the problem there. On the other hand, the visuals and the monologue don’t put me off and get me interested, so there’s that, I guess. We’ll see, but some footage of Venom wouldn’t have been bad… oh well!
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Um... I kinda liked it
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I'm pretty sure this isn't a real movie.
Nic
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Wound up being inspired to write some thoughts about Venom in my Google Drive that had been bubbling over for awhile. I'll put it in spoiler tags so as not to make a wall of text, but I must warn you; it's 1,600 words long, and writing it kinda drained me, so forgive me if it comes off a little rambly and/or unfocused.
So, the Venom movie’s teaser trailer came out a few days ago, and I was not impressed. It was very generic, it gave off the impression that it could be any standard action movie, there was only one shot of the Symbiote in a glass case, and, again, the removal of Spider-Man makes me question just why this movie is being made in the first place.
That last bit really bugs me. I get that Marvel Studios doesn't want whatever Sony is trying to do with the Spidey characters that Marvel Studios either won’t or can’t use, and that Sony seems to be really pushing for an idea that, despite having been in production since Venom’s first film appearance in Spider-Man 3, feels like no one asked for it to be. Now, I believe that you can make a good movie out of anything, but sometimes depending on the idea at the heart of the heart of that anything, you might have to retool it by varying levels of necessity.
On a concept level, I like the idea of the symbiote: a extraterrestrial life form with nary a concept of what life or being human is about attaches itself to a host and enhances the hosts personality, usually aggressive aspects because those kind of emotions are more primal. If I had my way, I would have made it so that when Peter Parker first got the symbiote suit, Peter knew it was alive, bonded it, make the symbiote a character in itself, and then have all the trauma that Peter goes through as Spider-Man get to the symbiote, making it’s turn to evil into a slow burn. Unfortunately, the best idea that the comics had after the original Secret Wars for the symbiote was “this suit will hijack your body while you sleep and make you evil,” at least until Flash Thompson gained the suit… and no the suit has gone back to Eddie Brock… yeah…
Speaking of, Eddie Brock. Going solely by the original comic introduction, Brock is not the greatest. His first appearance is terrifying, being able to sneak up on Spider-Man without triggering his spider-sense, as well as being stronger and faster. But as far as being a dark reflection of Spider-Man, he’s nowhere near close. His backstory involves him having being fired from a paper he was working at because he thought he had pegged a culprit called “The Sin Eater,” but the perp turned out to be a compulsive confessor, and Spider-Man ended up finding the real Sin Eater (until years later when the guy Brock accused came back to life and revealed, no, Brock was right all along. Comics are weird). Basically, his reasons for wanting to hunt down Spider-Man are petulant, selfish, and petty. Dude is just an asshole, and it doesn’t feel like it ties into Spider-Man’s themes of power, responsibility, or even being a character that is defined by the city he is in like Spidey is (case in point, when Marvel Comics decided to give Venom his own series, he seemed to operate mainly in Los Angeles, which is where the upcoming movie seems to take place as well). I suppose that you could focus on his catholic background and how that conflict with his desire to operate as Venom so his cancer doesn’t kill them, but then wouldn;t you just have a bulkier, more brutish version of Daredevil? However, that’s not to say that subsequent adaptations didn’t try to add something extra.
The first post-Venom adaptation of Spider-Man was the 90s Spider-Man the Animated Series. On top of making the Venom symbiote a truly evil being (boring), it also made it so that Eddie Brock wasn’t just a reporter who actually worked alongside Peter at the Daily Bugle rather than the comic’s Daily Globe, but he also appeared in multiple episodes beforehand so as to build the character up. Much appreciated, but it still wasn’t enough to support the character beyond five episodes (the three-part origin, and then a two-part episode that introduced Carnage before ultimately (and literally) sending them to another dimension). The next series (that I watched) was the Spectacular Spider-Man, that cribbed from the Ultimate Spider-Man comic by making Eddie Brock Peter’s childhood best friend. Again I haven't read those comics, but in the show gives him a ridiculous build as well as being Peter’s childhood friend, which makes him feel like a mixture of Harry Osborne and Flash Thompson. The show also has an extra episode devoted to the original symbiote arc, but the arc only serves to make Eddie feel derivative, as his sanity slippage comes across as a weaker version of Harry’s in the same series, but whereas Harry came across as sympathetic, Eddie is just crazy, even before he gets the Venom symbiote. There are some neat moments later on, like Eddie tricking Peter into revealing where he hid the symbiote (because there wasn’t a convenient rocket ship like in the 90s show), and the dude actually GOES into the Bugle and shouts “ Peter Parker is Spider-Man!” Sadly, that doesn’t go anywhere, because Peter isn’t found out and he’s able to separate Eddie from the symbiote and gets Eddie committed. And of course, there is Spider-Man 3 where Eddie is just a sleazy, slimier version of Peter Parker who nurses a one-sided crush on Gwen Stacey rather than a childhood romance that Peter had with Mary Jane in that continuity. I know a lot of people didn’t like that movie or it’s interpretation of Venom, but, as far as “being a dark reflection of Peter Parker,” I was actually really digging the movie’s Brock, and actually wished that he was allowed to live and be properly fleshed out in a Spider-Man 4. Aside from that instance, however, I seem to like Venom when he’s bonded to anyone else but Eddie Brock.
The last series I saw before the premiere of Marvel’s Spider-Man (Flash is Venom there, but he’s just a snarling monster and Thompson isn’t aware of what happens) was the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon, which, despite an uneven 1st season, actually did Venom really well. While it did do the universe shrinking of the Amazing Spider-Man Film Series and make Osborn the creator of the Spider that gave Peter his powers as well as obtaining Peter’s spider blood at some point, it uses those elements in a different way. First, Peter’s blood is actually used to make Venom (much more down to earth and befitting of Spider-Man’s street roots than a random rock from space just happening to contain life), and, while it’s first appearance is spent mindlessly hopping from person to person until it can bond with Peter again, it’s second appearance has Harry utilizing the symbiote to become Black Suit Spider-Man. It works because when Harry tells his secret to Peter and Peter tries to give the “power and responsibility” spiel, Harry counters by saying that his father taught him differently: with great power comes great reward. It hints at Harry’s strained relationship with his father, which increases in Venom’s third appearance, where Harry loses control and Hulks out in front of Norman, which disturbingly makes him proud of his son.
I didn’t watch the rest of the series, so I don’t know how Flash’s tenure as Venom went, but I hear great things, and I do love the basis that the comic Spider-Man Blue painted of Flash: someone who was a Spider-Man fanboy, but bullied Peter Parker, gets his life saved by Spidey and makes Flash realize that someone his hero’s age is doing so much with his life while he isn’t, which inspires him to join the army so that he can do some god. And in the mainstream continuity, after losing his legs, Flash gains the opportunity to be a soldier again by gaining a controlled version of the symbiote that grants him both legs and the title of Agent Venom. I actually would like to see at least one movie about Agent Venom based on that description alone, and one more if he becomes a Guardian of the Galaxy and visit the symbiote homeworld like in the comics.
Someone who never became Venom, but would make sense for them if it did, would be Gwen Stacy. In the comics, after her father, Captain George Stacey died, she blamed Spider-Man for his death, and left to live abroad in England. I could easily see the Venom symbiote bonding with her while she is grieving, and then become Spider-Woman after playing out the standard Venom origin. In fact, if the MCU is not using any characters that were previously in other movies, not just villains, Sony should just pay a ton of money to Emma Stone to come back as Spider-Gwen cameo and at least help set up Brock’s story.
If Eddie Brock has to be Venom, I’d keep him as Peter’s friend, but as that friend who you’re only really friends out of convenience, who thinks they’re helping but only makes things worse, and focus on how he’s a New Yorker too, and his gaining the symbiote being a metaphor for how he perceives his city letting him down. If I want to go for the full blown dark mirror of Spider-Man, just use a darker Spider-Man. Clones are part of Spider-Man’s mythos, and Kaine Parker has been gaining a bit of a following in the past few years. Just make Kaine part of a “Spider-Man Rebirth” project, and make him feel disconnected from everything, not being helped by his powers coming from the Venom symbiote.
That last bit really bugs me. I get that Marvel Studios doesn't want whatever Sony is trying to do with the Spidey characters that Marvel Studios either won’t or can’t use, and that Sony seems to be really pushing for an idea that, despite having been in production since Venom’s first film appearance in Spider-Man 3, feels like no one asked for it to be. Now, I believe that you can make a good movie out of anything, but sometimes depending on the idea at the heart of the heart of that anything, you might have to retool it by varying levels of necessity.
On a concept level, I like the idea of the symbiote: a extraterrestrial life form with nary a concept of what life or being human is about attaches itself to a host and enhances the hosts personality, usually aggressive aspects because those kind of emotions are more primal. If I had my way, I would have made it so that when Peter Parker first got the symbiote suit, Peter knew it was alive, bonded it, make the symbiote a character in itself, and then have all the trauma that Peter goes through as Spider-Man get to the symbiote, making it’s turn to evil into a slow burn. Unfortunately, the best idea that the comics had after the original Secret Wars for the symbiote was “this suit will hijack your body while you sleep and make you evil,” at least until Flash Thompson gained the suit… and no the suit has gone back to Eddie Brock… yeah…
Speaking of, Eddie Brock. Going solely by the original comic introduction, Brock is not the greatest. His first appearance is terrifying, being able to sneak up on Spider-Man without triggering his spider-sense, as well as being stronger and faster. But as far as being a dark reflection of Spider-Man, he’s nowhere near close. His backstory involves him having being fired from a paper he was working at because he thought he had pegged a culprit called “The Sin Eater,” but the perp turned out to be a compulsive confessor, and Spider-Man ended up finding the real Sin Eater (until years later when the guy Brock accused came back to life and revealed, no, Brock was right all along. Comics are weird). Basically, his reasons for wanting to hunt down Spider-Man are petulant, selfish, and petty. Dude is just an asshole, and it doesn’t feel like it ties into Spider-Man’s themes of power, responsibility, or even being a character that is defined by the city he is in like Spidey is (case in point, when Marvel Comics decided to give Venom his own series, he seemed to operate mainly in Los Angeles, which is where the upcoming movie seems to take place as well). I suppose that you could focus on his catholic background and how that conflict with his desire to operate as Venom so his cancer doesn’t kill them, but then wouldn;t you just have a bulkier, more brutish version of Daredevil? However, that’s not to say that subsequent adaptations didn’t try to add something extra.
The first post-Venom adaptation of Spider-Man was the 90s Spider-Man the Animated Series. On top of making the Venom symbiote a truly evil being (boring), it also made it so that Eddie Brock wasn’t just a reporter who actually worked alongside Peter at the Daily Bugle rather than the comic’s Daily Globe, but he also appeared in multiple episodes beforehand so as to build the character up. Much appreciated, but it still wasn’t enough to support the character beyond five episodes (the three-part origin, and then a two-part episode that introduced Carnage before ultimately (and literally) sending them to another dimension). The next series (that I watched) was the Spectacular Spider-Man, that cribbed from the Ultimate Spider-Man comic by making Eddie Brock Peter’s childhood best friend. Again I haven't read those comics, but in the show gives him a ridiculous build as well as being Peter’s childhood friend, which makes him feel like a mixture of Harry Osborne and Flash Thompson. The show also has an extra episode devoted to the original symbiote arc, but the arc only serves to make Eddie feel derivative, as his sanity slippage comes across as a weaker version of Harry’s in the same series, but whereas Harry came across as sympathetic, Eddie is just crazy, even before he gets the Venom symbiote. There are some neat moments later on, like Eddie tricking Peter into revealing where he hid the symbiote (because there wasn’t a convenient rocket ship like in the 90s show), and the dude actually GOES into the Bugle and shouts “ Peter Parker is Spider-Man!” Sadly, that doesn’t go anywhere, because Peter isn’t found out and he’s able to separate Eddie from the symbiote and gets Eddie committed. And of course, there is Spider-Man 3 where Eddie is just a sleazy, slimier version of Peter Parker who nurses a one-sided crush on Gwen Stacey rather than a childhood romance that Peter had with Mary Jane in that continuity. I know a lot of people didn’t like that movie or it’s interpretation of Venom, but, as far as “being a dark reflection of Peter Parker,” I was actually really digging the movie’s Brock, and actually wished that he was allowed to live and be properly fleshed out in a Spider-Man 4. Aside from that instance, however, I seem to like Venom when he’s bonded to anyone else but Eddie Brock.
The last series I saw before the premiere of Marvel’s Spider-Man (Flash is Venom there, but he’s just a snarling monster and Thompson isn’t aware of what happens) was the Ultimate Spider-Man cartoon, which, despite an uneven 1st season, actually did Venom really well. While it did do the universe shrinking of the Amazing Spider-Man Film Series and make Osborn the creator of the Spider that gave Peter his powers as well as obtaining Peter’s spider blood at some point, it uses those elements in a different way. First, Peter’s blood is actually used to make Venom (much more down to earth and befitting of Spider-Man’s street roots than a random rock from space just happening to contain life), and, while it’s first appearance is spent mindlessly hopping from person to person until it can bond with Peter again, it’s second appearance has Harry utilizing the symbiote to become Black Suit Spider-Man. It works because when Harry tells his secret to Peter and Peter tries to give the “power and responsibility” spiel, Harry counters by saying that his father taught him differently: with great power comes great reward. It hints at Harry’s strained relationship with his father, which increases in Venom’s third appearance, where Harry loses control and Hulks out in front of Norman, which disturbingly makes him proud of his son.
I didn’t watch the rest of the series, so I don’t know how Flash’s tenure as Venom went, but I hear great things, and I do love the basis that the comic Spider-Man Blue painted of Flash: someone who was a Spider-Man fanboy, but bullied Peter Parker, gets his life saved by Spidey and makes Flash realize that someone his hero’s age is doing so much with his life while he isn’t, which inspires him to join the army so that he can do some god. And in the mainstream continuity, after losing his legs, Flash gains the opportunity to be a soldier again by gaining a controlled version of the symbiote that grants him both legs and the title of Agent Venom. I actually would like to see at least one movie about Agent Venom based on that description alone, and one more if he becomes a Guardian of the Galaxy and visit the symbiote homeworld like in the comics.
Someone who never became Venom, but would make sense for them if it did, would be Gwen Stacy. In the comics, after her father, Captain George Stacey died, she blamed Spider-Man for his death, and left to live abroad in England. I could easily see the Venom symbiote bonding with her while she is grieving, and then become Spider-Woman after playing out the standard Venom origin. In fact, if the MCU is not using any characters that were previously in other movies, not just villains, Sony should just pay a ton of money to Emma Stone to come back as Spider-Gwen cameo and at least help set up Brock’s story.
If Eddie Brock has to be Venom, I’d keep him as Peter’s friend, but as that friend who you’re only really friends out of convenience, who thinks they’re helping but only makes things worse, and focus on how he’s a New Yorker too, and his gaining the symbiote being a metaphor for how he perceives his city letting him down. If I want to go for the full blown dark mirror of Spider-Man, just use a darker Spider-Man. Clones are part of Spider-Man’s mythos, and Kaine Parker has been gaining a bit of a following in the past few years. Just make Kaine part of a “Spider-Man Rebirth” project, and make him feel disconnected from everything, not being helped by his powers coming from the Venom symbiote.
hbenthow
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Nic said:
Considering that this is going to be a Venom solo movie without much of Spider-Man, I think it would probably be best for them to retcon the "Agent Venom" story so that it happens to Eddie Brock instead of Flash Thompson. That's the only type of storyline that I can see working for this type of movie.
Nic
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hbenthow said:
The problem, though, is that, from my understanding, Flash Thompson's heroism was fueled by Spider-Man's actions, more of which you can read about here if you like: https://arousinggrammar.com/2013/09/03/flash-thompson-superhero-pt-1/
By both transplanting Agent Venom to Eddie Brock AND excising Spider-Man from Venom's story, you're just getting a non-substantial version of two characters that won't satisfy either's fans. Again, if you can use Gwen Stacy, pay Emma Stone for a Spider-Gwen cameo to at least give the story some meat to it.
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I thought the trailer was decent. Didn't look bad, didn't look good, but it did the job. It "teased".
I'm not a big super hero buff, but I loved Spiderman as a kid; in particular, anything relating to the venom alien. I was so disappointed with Spiderman 3, so I'm just happy that a film is being made focusing on that part of the franchise.
I'm not normally a fan of Tom Hardy (so, shoot me), but he seems like a good casting choice for Brock.
Edit: I'm also EXTREMELY happy that it's not part of the MCU.
I'm not a big super hero buff, but I loved Spiderman as a kid; in particular, anything relating to the venom alien. I was so disappointed with Spiderman 3, so I'm just happy that a film is being made focusing on that part of the franchise.
I'm not normally a fan of Tom Hardy (so, shoot me), but he seems like a good casting choice for Brock.
Edit: I'm also EXTREMELY happy that it's not part of the MCU.
ImperialFighter
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The latest trailer has arrived, which this time shows how Venom looks in this thing -
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I'm still a little fuzzy how you have a Venom movie that doesn't involved Spider-man.
It's WAY too early to say, but this trailer just makes it seem like this is a waste of money and Tom Hardy's talent. Maybe SONY's game is to get a Venom franchise going and ask MARVEL to pay them LOTS of money to crossover Spidey with Venom?
It's WAY too early to say, but this trailer just makes it seem like this is a waste of money and Tom Hardy's talent. Maybe SONY's game is to get a Venom franchise going and ask MARVEL to pay them LOTS of money to crossover Spidey with Venom?