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The ARROWVERSE (Flash, Arrow, Supergirl, Legends,etc)

bionicbob

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gazza said:
Marvel’s Jessica Jones - Season 2 | Official Trailer 
released on netflix on march 8th . anyone else looking forward to season 2 or are you more excited for luke cage season 2

Great series.  Intriguing trailer.
Though Jessica Jones is MARVEL.   This thread is dedicated to DC Comics's shared ArrowVerse shows.  :p hee hee  :D
 

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Guys, I might be done with The Flash. Everything about it has grown old and tiresome - the single plot arcs scraped across entire seasons to no lasting effect, the Big Bads whose motives and plans are are unclear for the first two-thirds of the season, until they're revealed to be dumb and easily beaten in the final few eps, the pitiful Barry/Iris romance, the boring-ass West family soap opera storylines, and the lack of growth/progression for Cisco and Caitlyn. Time and again, potentially interesting storylines - Team Flash vs. the military, Flashpoint, Gorilla City, Earth-Two, the dilemma of the Speed Force Prison, and most recently Prisoner Barry - are half-heartedly explored for an episode or two, only to be cast aside so the dull main season plot can retake center stage.

All this has been the case for a while, though, making the show's main charm the Team Flash characters and their interactions. But though Ralph has been a fun addition, and Wally's departure was a welcome subtraction of a useless character (I'm anxious that he'll drag the Legends down also, but, who knows, maybe he won't), the group is just hitting the same notes again and again, with the "character doubts resolved with trite pep talks" trope being egregiously overused. Meanwhile, it's clear that the show isn't interested in building or evolving to anything - and indeed it can't, because its place in the Arrowverse pretty much requires it to keep on treading water in its niche, much like Arrow does in its niche. The Legends may also be stuck in a storytelling loop, complete with obligatory season-long meaningless Big Bad-centric arcs, but at least the constant stream of new time periods is keeping that show fresh - for now.

I finally gave up on Arrow (and have never looked back) halfway through its fourth season, and I'm about at that point with The Flash in its fourth season. The thrill of having weekly full-on superhero series is simply kaput, and  though Legends of Tomorrow remains fun and exciting, it too may well have peaked with its second-season Legion of Doom arc. (It's telling that by keeping Darkh around, with Mallus remaining entirely undefined, they're still leaning on the strengths of that villain team, as if they know that they won't be able to top it with any generic Big Bads of their own. Also, Constantine is a lame and irritating tosser - there, I said it!) I'd say "see you in the big crossover events, Flash" - but, as I've noted, those are bad to awful, so, never mind. As Mr. Dent says...

Your_Show.jpg


But, hey, Agents of SHIELD is still great! :p
 

bionicbob

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The CW has renewed the Arrowverse for another season...

https://screenrant.com/cw-renews-arrow-black-lightning-riverdale-2018/

Thus far this season, FLASH remains my favourite watch, as it continues to be the most "comic booky" of all the Arrowverse shows and the main cast is so incredibly likeable.   And how they have handled the big bad, The Thinker, has been somewhat refreshing.

LEGENDS is always entertaining and overly ambitious (its very hard to make Vancouver in winter look like Africa lol), though it decends into pure comedy more than I like, but again, much like Flash, the team ensemble and their banter keeps me tuned in. Next week is the season finale, then Supergirl returns and takes it's time slot.

SUPERGIRL, while not as strong as season two, has explored some interesting new territory and the villain Reign is one of the more complex, sympathetic Arrowverse villains in a long time.  But once again, it is not the badguys that hold my attention, it is the character dynamics between the core cast that draw me in.

ARROW, after a revitalizing fifth season, season six has felt tired.   Again, the cast is great, the action sequences are the best on network tv and the big bad twist was decent but the main arc of breaking up the team, and now the division between Ollie and Diggle, all feels very forced, unearned and out of character to me.   

The strength of all these shows is the strong casts and usually great character dynamic between them.   The big weakness of ALL OF THEM is it reliance on the WHEDON PLAYBOOK for storytelling.  Almost every Network shows uses it.  It has been done to death.  It begins to give the shows a Wash, Rinse and REPEAT feel.  

If these shows are going to continue to succeed, they need to drop their season long big bad arcs, and focus instead on just telling good stories, be it episodic or mini-movie arcs.  Not every adventure needs to be about saving the City or the World.  So long as the writers take the time to craft interesting villains to watch, it doesn't matter what the plot is, be it bank robbery, drug dealing or alien invasion.  Just give me solid fun stories.
 

bionicbob

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So I guess this is what they do between scene shots... LOL

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEFzBWXNc0w[/video]

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwR_j9Ci6LA[/video]

:p
 

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LEGENDS OF TOMORROW SEASON 3 FINALE
"The Good, The Bad and The Cuddly"

A very FUN wrap up to the Mallus season arc.  They went BIG for the finale, lots of guest heroes, lots of action and humour, and some nice emotional beats as we saw the departure of some main characters.

On a whole, I would say this season was on par with Season 2.   A lot more comedy this season, which is both a strength and weakness.   I feel the season 2 Legion of Doom arc was slightly stronger just because it is always better to have real live villains than CGI ones.   With that said, Legends CGI Big Bad battle was HILARIOUS  (borrowed/ripped off from Ghostbusters ha ha!) and imo was better looking/executed than most of the multi-million dollar big screen DC or Marvel blockbusters...

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7lgoqO2Ot8[/video]

The closing bookend sets up season four with Constantine joining the cast a series regular.
All in all, a very entertaining season.  :D
 

bionicbob

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SUPERGIRL returned this week after a long hiatus and it hit a home run with its return.  It is was an exceptionally strong character focused episode that touched on many social issues of substance....  It explored the tragedy of a love one with Alzheimers.... it asked the question why J'onn would choose to live the life of a Black man in America.... and the 'A" storyline of Winn dealing with the death of his villain father and return of his estranged mother played very true and bittersweet.   This felt like a return to season two quality of episodes...  good solid character development laced with social commentary.  Hopefully the remaining eps continue this trend.

There was also some fun gags with the new Toy Man (?)...  trapping Kara in a giant action figure container was funny even though she should have easily escaped it instead of being rescued by Mon-el lol

Things I have missed this season.... not a single reference to Superman so far..... in the past the writers made an effort to reference Superman to explain why he is not present when their is a major crisis.   But this year nada.  Though perhaps the writers feel Kara has stepped out of her cousin's shadow since they established her as the Earth's champion in the season two finale?

But the bigger thing that bugs me, after spending all of season two teaching Kare how to become a reporter, there has not been any real stories this year of her as such.   Editor Snapper Carr has completed vanished and when we visit Catco it is mostly for Jimmy/Lena scenes not Kara.   

Moving along....  FLASH had another fun episode with a dark, somber twist for the team.   I must admit, though I have grown tired of season long Big Bad arcs, the Thinker has turned out to be a refreshing twist on the formula.

ARROW... what to say?   The last two episodes have featured extraordinary powerful character scenes... the conflict between Diggle and Ollie was very well done.   And Ollie's vertigo induce hallucinations last week, really showed off Amell's range and shows why he is the star of this show.   Though the character's decision to go alone after the said Vertigo experience seemed at odds with what he experienced?   Ollie continues to make bad decisions.    And maybe that is the point of this season....

The producers are teasing a "game changer" for season six finale, and we know the title of episode is "Life Sentence"....  speculation is Ollie will lose his secret identity and be sent to prison.   Which could be a much needed twist, though Flash just did a hero in prison storyline, so will that feel repetitive to fans?   But if handled right, it could be invigorating.   Have Diaz win at the season finale, in complete control of Star City,  Ollie sent to prison trapped with villains he put there.   He has to escape to save his city, truly becoming a Robin Hood style outlaw.... it could be fun?   We know season seven has a new showrunner as Gruggenheim is departing.... a new showrunner this late in a series run can be revitalizing, though more often than not, it is the death knell to a long running show.   Season seven will be a telling year for Arrow and the franchise it has spawned.
 

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Arrow, a show about a bow-and-arrow-toting vigilante, will run at least as long as TNG.

I can't be the only one to find that bananas?!

 

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BLACK LIGHTNING had its season finale this past week.

It was a tightly plotted and paced 13 episodes.  Unlike the similar episode count Marvel Netflix series, there was no fat or filler.  This was pure economical storytelling where every episode had a point and pay off.

There are many refreshing strengths to this series, the best being the positive and healthy Pierce Family dynamics.  The series stayed true to its more "grounded" reality by never shying away from current social, cultural and political issues.  (In many ways, this is the element I always wished had been present in the Arrow series.)  Though by the finale, arch-badguy Tobias Whale has his own team of super-villains complete with comic book codenames.

While there was lots of Arrowverse teasing/easter eggs through the season, showrunner Salim AKil remains firm that Black Lightning is not part of the greater Arrowverse.   Though, I am certain, if there is a way to make Ratings/Profit from it, the CW and Berlanti will engineer some sort of crossover.

A solid entertaining freshman season.  Perhaps the strongest first season of all the Arrowverse shows since The FLASH, which I give first place to because it had a greater sense of fun with its comic booky roots.

My minor personal nitpick:  I do not like the Black Lightning suit.  Cress Williams is already a big, broad shouldered guy but the chest plate/armour design of the costume makes him look too big and bulky, and it just looks cumbersome/awkward in many of the action sequences.  I hope they streamline it for season two.  :p
 

bionicbob

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So tonight is the season six finale of Arrow.  
http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PJ-WEwiQzg[/video]

The last 5 or 6 episodes have been exceptionally strong, almost redeeming the uneven, awkward forced mid-season story arc.   Diaz has turned into a refreshing and frightening villain... he has no past or grudge with Ollie, he is not out to destroy the city.... he is just pure psychopath.  Still, there is a bit of deja vu in this season narrative.  As I have said before, the producers have got to throw out the Whedon playbook.   But at the same time, its still better and truer comic book storytelling than any of the DC big screen movies imo.

In other Arrowverse news....
--the first hints for next season crossover spectacular have been dropped.... BATWOMAN.  yep, for the first time ever in live action (maybe animation too????) Batwoman will appear, along with Gotham City.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/batwoman-make-arrow-verse-debut-next-crossover-1112799
https://etcanada.com/news/328676/st...-arrow-and-batwoman-crossover-twitter-reacts/
so yes, my fanboy interest has been officially peaked!   :D

--and SUPERGIRL is moving to Sunday nights as the CW expands it's weekly programming.
 

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ARROW season six finale "LIFE SENTENCE"

A strong and rewarding season finale.   It was also somewhat refreshing as it broke away with most past Arrow finale tropes, no city or world in peril, no master plan finally coming to fruition, no traditional bad guy last act showdown.... these are all positives in my book!   While still action packed, this was more character driven and intimate drama.   Though it did have strong shades of the season three finale in Ollie's reconciliation with his Team.

I think the biggest weakness of the finale was the CW marketing, by releasing the episode title ahead of time and revealing Paul Blackthorne would not be returning for season seven, some of the story twists were unfortunately clearly telegraphed.

But in the end, after a very uneven mid-season story arc, season six landed on it's feet and closed on a very powerful emotional note.  I would give it 8.5 out of 10.  :D


Now bring on season seven and the LONGBOW HUNTERS!!!! 
 

bionicbob

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THE FLASH season four finale "WE ARE THE FLASH"

Frustrating and uneven.   Much like the season on the whole.

There was a lot of good stuff in the final... the entire episode looked gorgeous, the first three acts were well balanced, action packed with some really great F/X sequences, including their version of The Matrix's Burly Brawl and a cool saving Central City from a falling satellite.  There was also some real emotionally powerful beats featuring the always amazing Tom Canavagh.

The frustrating part came in the final defeat of the big bad, The Thinker.   There was no direct confrontation between Barry and The Thinker, no satisfying moment of Barry 'outthinking' the Thinker.  And then, to have Marlize just simply and too easily unplug digital DeVoe from the chair was incredibly underwhelming.  Why not keep Devoe's mind trapped in the chair, have him escape to be a recurring villain?  For a mastermind who thought of everything, he didn't have a single escape plan on the marginal chance he was defeated?

The other odd narrative revelation, it seems the plot thread started in the season four premiere, Flash Reborn, and peppered throughout the season, was all set up for season FIVE, with no resolution or explanation in the finale.  The only tease we got was finally learning the identity of the mystery girl speedster in the last act, but I think everyone knew she would either be Barry's or Joe's future daughter, so there was no real twist or surprise in her reveal.

I have a few other nitpicks, but the biggest being once again an Arrowverse show lets a villain go because they showed remorse and redemptive qualities, never mind all the crimes they committed up to that point.   

Of all the Arrowverse shows, The Flash usually has the strongest and most entertaining finales.  But not this year.  While good, it lacked the much needed emotional confrontation between our hero and villain.

I give it a 7 out of 10.
 

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Some nice discussion of ARROW, of its strengths and weakness, as the crew prepare their Top 10 list...

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZLS9My6oco[/video]



Top Ten HONORABLE Mentions....

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q025vTPJeWA&t=85s[/video]
If these are the honourable mentions, what will the final top 10 be???  :p
 

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bionicbob said:
LEGENDS OF TOMORROW SEASON 3 FINALE
"The Good, The Bad and The Cuddly"

A very FUN wrap up to the Mallus season arc.  They went BIG for the finale, lots of guest heroes, lots of action and humour, and some nice emotional beats as we saw the departure of some main characters.

MV5BYTU1NmJkNjktMjBhNS00YWNjLTkyZTYtMjE0NjkxMTI1MTQwXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyNTM5NjkxMzM@._V1_.jpg


Agreed, solid entertainment all around. I'd say that, on the whole, S3 wasn't quite as great as S2, with its Legion of Doom, but it was certainly tons of fun, and in no way a disappointment. I quite liked the development and partial redemption of Damian Darkh, and Rip got a fine send-off, including a mention of his family that's been all but forgotten these past two seasons. B+ for Season 3.

As for S4, I hope that dragon's head isn't a one-off, and we get lot more weird creatures and beasties in addition to general magic/spells. I'm not a big fan of Constantine, so here's hoping he doesn't overpower the rest of the cast too much. Finally, I'm pleased by the news that Wally will not be a series regular going forward - not only is he a dull character performed by a middling actor, speedsters are quite simply way too overpowered for our group of Legendary losers. He was fine in his few episodes here, but I was hoping he wouldn't stick around.

Otherwise, I walked away from The Flash this season and haven't looked back. So that's two good seasons for Arrow, two good seasons for The Flash, and three and counting good seasons for LoT - sure, its first season wasn't great, but I don't agree with the new consensus that views it as being horrible and worthless, either. As for Supergirl, I lost interest part way through the first season, and it sounds as though it's just been one big ol' mess (sometimes good, sometimes bad, but always just plain messy and unfocused) all along. In other words, Legends of Tomorrow is the best Arrowverse series there is! :D
 

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Gaith said:
bionicbob said:
Supergirl[/i], I lost interest part way through the first season, and it sounds as though it's just been one big ol' mess (sometimes good, sometimes bad, but always just plain messy and unfocused) all along. In other words, Legends of Tomorrow is the best Arrowverse series there is! :D

You may want to give Supergirl season two a shot, lots of fun there that went missing from The Flash, but yes there is bad as well as good.
 

bionicbob

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addiesin said:
Gaith said:
bionicbob said:
Supergirl[/i], I lost interest part way through the first season, and it sounds as though it's just been one big ol' mess (sometimes good, sometimes bad, but always just plain messy and unfocused) all along. In other words, Legends of Tomorrow is the best Arrowverse series there is! :D

You may want to give Supergirl season two a shot, lots of fun there that went missing from The Flash, but yes there is bad as well as good.

Supergirl season two was exceptionally strong imo.  Everything was firing on full cylinders from FX to writing to casting and performance.  Yes, some key supporting players (and I guess some story arcs) were lost in the production move from L.A. to Vancouver, but in terms of storytelling, the showed it potential in the type of relevant social commentary it can make while balancing super-heroics.   It is something season three was mostly missing until this last quarter.

But for me, season two was excellent with the weakest/most disappointing episodes being the actual final two parter season finale.  But besides that, some truly excellent comic booky episodes, and well worth checking out.

As for the current season three... well, I will refrain from commenting too much until the finale airs in another week.
 

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2018 Comic Con Trailers have dropped....

Arrow Season 7
http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlj4dXPGnAE[/video]


Supergirl Season 4:
http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw30raSbrhE[/video]

Flash Season 5:
http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZ65JKBLoq8[/video]

Legends of Tomorrow Season 4:
http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoSjI3N3_rA[/video]
 

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Bob, you never did give your final thought on Supergirl S3! Just going to leave us hanging?! :)
 

bionicbob

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Gaith said:
Bob, you never did give your final thought on Supergirl S3! Just going to leave us hanging?! :)

Careful what you ask for...  :p

Lots of thoughts, some very convoluted... so I will break it into two parts, the firstly being the season finale and then the whole season in general.

SUPERGIRL SEASON 3 FINALE
"Battles Lost and Won"

Very similar to the Flash finale, a frustrating and anti-climatic season ender.   I had high hopes going in after the FANTASTIC previous episode, "Make It Reign" and it started out strong with all the heroes fighting together (love Alura's silver age costume design!!!) to save National City, even if it did repurpose some FX shots from other episodes.  But after the opening 10 minutes, (in which we FINALLY got a Superman reference/explanation!!!)  the remainder of the episode started to go down hill.  Of the 42 minute episode, I think only 25 minutes was actually dedicated to the Reign storyline, the last 10-15 minutes seemed focused to saying goodbye to characters and setting up a new status quo for season four.  The conclusion to the Reign arc was clunky, both narratively and visually -- the final fight choreography was awful and time travel solution was completely left field and wonky.  And worst of all, Supergirl felt more like a supporting character than the driving force of the story.  Though I give writers props with not going the obvious route of killing Reign and having Alex adopting Ruby, as most online fans were predicting.  The strength of the episode, as it has been all season, was the character relationships, while the actual season big bad arc resolution went out with a whimper instead of a bang.

All in all, easily the weakest finale of the Arrowverse shows this year.  I give the Finale a 7 out of 10.

SUPERGIRL SEASON THREE IN GENERAL RAMBLINGS...

Of all the Arrowverse shows, Supergirl has always had the biggest/obvious challenges, particularly in terms of forgotten characters, story plot point and internal continuity.

The production move from L.A. to Vancouver, attributed to the loss of Cat Grant, Lucy Lane and Maxwell Lord and with it their storylines.

Season three, much like season four of The Flash, started out very strong but became unfocused in the second half.  I speculate the firing of Andrew Kreisberg had a greater impact on the writing of these shows than anyone expected since he was the main creative driving vision of both shows.

Season three saw the mysterious loss of the Alien Immigration story thread from season two ( what happened to the alien president Lynda Carter? or Winn's alien girlfriend???), which was a real strength of the show in season two. (though based on the comic con trailer, it looks like they will be returning to this story for season 4)  In fact, there was no real social commentary this season until it returned for it's last quarter.   The discussion of race in the United States was handled well, but the Gun Control episode was horrible.  But the inclusion of the ongoing Alzheimer storyline was very tastefully done and very heart wrenching.

Mon-el and the Legion storyline, again started with great potential.  They teased that several Legionnaires were aboard the Cruiser in status, but in the end we only saw three of them.  (BTW loved Mon's comic accurate costume!) While the inclusion of the Legion had some fun moments, by adding them to an already large ensemble, Supergirl felt pushed more to the background than usual.  I also have some serious continuity issues with the Legion's appearance.  In season one, they clearly show a Legion Ring in Superman's Fortress, so if the producers are being true to the mythos, Superman as a boy was member.  Why doesn't Kara know anything about them?  Her cousin never shared any stories of his Legion adventures?  Or why didn't Superman recognize Mon-el when he met him in season two? Or why has there never an explanation why Mon-el shares Kal and Kara's House Name???

As for the Kara and Mon-el relationship, it was handled okay-ish lol.  It was very flip-floppy at times, with no clear narrative message.  But by far the most frustrating element of it, after they struggled to reconnect all season, they both decide to end it with a few throw away lines of dialogue because duty is more important than their personal desires.  

One of biggest gripes of season three is lack of balance to Supergirl as a character, even though that was supposedly the main underlying theme of the season.  For reasons unknown to me, the writers/producers of the Arrowverse shows do not seem to like Secret Identities. The secret identity is the corner stone foundation of all great comic books.   It is gold mine for both drama and humour.   And yet, the Arrowverse shows seem to all eventually drop this element.   The best part of Supergirl season one was the Kara Danvers aspect and interacting with people at CatCo.  In season two, this eroded slightly with the departure of Cat Grant, but we still saw Supergirl being Kara as she endeavoured to become a great reporter like her cousin.  But is season three, Kara's new mentor Snapper Carr disappeared without explanation, and the only time we really saw Kara being Kara was when she needed to investigate something for the D.E.O., and even then she was behaving more like Supergirl with glasses on.  This was a real loss to the show imo.  Benoist is absolutely heart stealing as Kara, and the show desperately needs to reinstate this element.

As I said before, the strength of the series is in characters and their relationship with each other.  Kara and Alex, their sisterly bond, is powerful and believable.  Their relationship with J'onn has become a high point of the show, and it is this trinity that makes the show work.  Both Alex and J'onn had rich, emotional and satisfying story arcs this season.  Winn, less so, but his character went off on a very strong note.  As always, the series struggled with what to do with Jimmy... I mean, James Olson, but found a niche for him to fill in the last third of the season.  Lena continued to evolve and go down the dark path all Luthor's seemed doomed to travel, even when they are adopted.   And I really enjoyed the majority of the Reign character, particularly the mother/daughter relationship between Sam and Ruby.

Mythology wise, the show often dropped the underdeveloped ball.  The reveal of Argo City and Kara's mother being alive should have been the most monumental, emotionally powerful event of the season.  Instead, it was completely half-baked and treated as a run of the mill filler episode.   A truly lost moment by the producers.  But on the other hand, the Chad Lowe Supergirl worshipping cult and the Kryptonian Witches (great to see Sara Douglas again) brought something new and fun to the table.

So while Supergirl season three ended on a weak note, the overall season had some truly nice highlights.  

I would give the overall season a B-Minus.

:D
 

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bionicbob said:
In fact, there was no real social commentary this season until it returned for it's last quarter.

Really? My wife and I were frequently surprised by how heavy-handed a lot of the political commentary was this season.
 

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To coincide with the season six dvd release of ARROW, Jawiin completed their weekly Top Ten episode this week:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIPYu8RdPGbeTKqGkJS4WcL1LbrRHY1C1

10. Kapiushon
9. The Brave and the Bold
8. Seeing Red
7. Three Ghosts
6. The Scientist
5. Lian Yu
4. Invasion!
3. Sacrifice
2. Pilot
...and number ONE, 
"UNTHINKABLE" season two
http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaVvNo3Zb4g[/video]

In other news,
actress RUBY ROSE has been cast as BATWOMAN
ruby-rose-batwoman-header.jpg

which will go to pilot phase after the crossover.
Legends will not be participating in this years crossover event, which is good since their large cast and different tone would probably detract from a more darker, serious storyline.

and Barry is getting a slightly modified, more comic book accurate costume:
http://ca.ign.com/articles/2018/08/...ook-at-the-flash-season-5-suit-following-leak

And according to the CW President, there are no plans at this time to end/cancel any of the Arrowverse shows.
https://www.comicbookmovie.com/tv/d...n-series-says-no-plans-for-batman-yet-a162736
 
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