Star Wars - The Force Awakens (SPOILERS Thread)

Ok. let me make this clearer: America is not the world.
What Americans find offensive is not necessarily what other people find offensive (and vice versa).
So before you leap to conclusions about people, particularly when they are second or third language English speakers, take a moment to consider they might not be saying what you think they are saying or what you are hearing them saying.
This phrase "when you use a phrase that has obvious sexist connotations (no matter if you feel that way or not)" is exactly my point. It has obvious sexist connotations FOR YOU IN YOUR CULTURE. It doesn't in mine. It doesn't in Masimiro's. We're not American.
But it's cool that you expressed that. Now we know. Now Masimiro knows.
I'm just pointing out that to leap to wild accusations of misogyny to a Turkish guy because he doesn't understand that in American culture the term "Mary Sue " is highly loaded and considered sexist is - dare I say it - culturally imperialist. (sorry couldn't resist. ;-) )

dangermouse said:

Ok. let me make this clearer: America is not the world.
What Americans find offensive is not necessarily what other people find offensive (and vice versa).
So before you leap to conclusions about people, particularly when they are second or third language English speakers, take a moment to consider they might not be saying what you think they are saying or what you are hearing them saying.
This phrase "when you use a phrase that has obvious sexist connotations (no matter if you feel that way or not)" is exactly my point. It has obvious sexist connotations FOR YOU IN YOUR CULTURE. It doesn't in mine. It doesn't in Masimiro's. We're not American.
But it's cool that you expressed that. Now we know. Now Masimiro knows.
I'm just pointing out that to leap to wild accusations of misogyny to a Turkish guy because he doesn't understand that in American culture the term "Mary Sue " is highly loaded and considered sexist is - dare I say it - culturally imperialist. (sorry couldn't resist. ;-) )

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No one said America is the world. This point of ridiculousness (sorry Frink) where we are at now comes after several back and forth posts stating that some people find the term sexist. Arguing that it isn't has led to where we are now. Whether or not I or anyone else thinks the term is "obviously sexist" is no longer the issue. This holds true for any term from any culture. If you use a word or a phrase in a conversation and someone takes offense to it, its best to try to find another way of describing your thoughts instead of trying to explain to them that the term isn't offensive because ______. Otherwise, people are just going to be grumpy at each other and the whole point of the conversation is going to be lost. 

For the sake of carrying on the conversation as intended (you know, Star Wars...), I suggest everyone drop this debate.

addiesin said:

Masirimso17 said:

But Batman has a backstory that explains and supports his abilities. Parents murdered, swears to fight injustice in Gotham, comes from a rich family, trained for years etc... Rey doesn't have that kind of a backstory that explains her abilities. I just find her too unbelievably perfect, though if Episode VIII explains everything with a new backstory then it'll be fixed, but I do mean everything including all the Millenium Falcon stuff I mentioned and lots of others listed in the video, which is doubtful but possible.

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But Batman also has had over 75 years for these stories to be developed. When he debuted, most of the backstory you're talking about didn't exist yet. Bruce Wayne was described in his first story as Commissioner Gordon's "young socialite friend", and the last panel reveals he's "The Bat-Man" to the audience as a twist. That's it. No hints at his backstory, no dead parents, no fortune, no training, etc. Just Mr. Perfect showing up to stop the big bad criminals. And he may have killed them, it's unclear.

By comparison, Rey (who is a character that has appeared in one film and has existed less than two years) is a bastion of development and flaws.

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Batman's origin was revealed the same year as his debut. But other than that, yes I can't argue too much with the development in years part, he was developed in 75 years and Rey can be developed in the next years. Though like I said I doubt everything will be fixed with her backstory that'll be revealed. Anyway I'm tired of this "Mary Sue" subject, as I have nothing else to add.

But that doesn't mean I'll stop criticizing. Muahahahah...

addiesin said:

My favorite part of the film is after she touches the lightsaber and has a vision, when she just says "NOPE" and runs out of there like a scared child, which leads her to be captured and nearly killed. In her first appearance her mysterious backstory is hinted at, but at the same time, her first scene and first line of dialogue she hears sets up her relevant backstory for the film. She's intimately knowledgable about the inner workings of star-ships because she needs to survive on her own in a desert wasteland and the broken technology that surrounds her is her only means of sustenance. 

I believe what you're really frustrated with is plot convenience, and you're using this character who benefits the most from the plot conveniences as the scapegoat. Just my opinion. I think she's fine, even if the plot does have problems. I find her to be a likable lead character and want to see where they take her (maybe for the next 75 years and beyond).

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Yes I agree that the vision reaction was one of her better moments. But the ship thing... I don't know. I don't think being knowledgeable about the inner workings of starships would be enough for Rey to be able to fly a ship that no one's flown in years perfectly, with impressive flips and moves. Or knowing how to bypass the compressor and fix the hyperdrive better than Han Solo, and inexplicably knowing how to go into hyperspace. "Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy!" I'm not sure if being a salvager would be enough to know these things.

ThrowgnCpr said:

If you use a word or a phrase in a conversation and someone takes offense to it, its best to try to find another way of describing your thoughts instead of trying to explain to them that the term isn't offensive because ______. Otherwise, people are just going to be grumpy at each other and the whole point of the conversation is going to be lost.

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Totally agree. And that also goes for those being offended not just assuming that the person is using that phrase to offend you. Words and actions mean very different things in different cultures, and it's WAY too easy to offend someone! It is a work of genius to produce a film like TFA which actually resonates well across many different cultures. Very impressive!
It seems to have actually offended more people in the US than anywhere else because of this "is Rey overpowered" issue.
The funny thing is, to me she comes across as vulnerable rather than overpowered. She's very like Ripley in that she's a real person who finds strength in an overwhelming situation. It just so happens she has some latent talents that come to the fore as well. But my overall impression of her is not "kick-ass", but vulnerable, approachable, identifiable. We all know the longing for home, longing to belong, trying to find a place in the world. If anyone, she's Luke!

i like how when rey upgrades her wardrobe, she maintains the same basic cut & style, i.e., nicer version of the scavenger threads.

kind of like han in the OT.

btw, were the last few pages a subconscious expression of rogue one anxiety? 

At the risk of continuing a discussion I really don't want to continue, I don't think American culture has anything to do with it. If anything this is a term that is part of international internet culture. It's recent and has nothing to do specifically with American, besides it being a term to describe an aspect of typically an American film. The sexist connotations are inherent to the term and have nothing to do with whether one's from America or not. Americans didn't add that element to it and that element has nothing to do with American culture specifically. It's always been there, and as long as people continue to use it to criticize the rare strong female character and forget about it when discussing the common strong male character - whether they're American or not - then the term will continue to be sexist in any culture.

Meanwhile Rey criticisms continue to be largely bullshit. Can't wait for the Jyn Erso Mary Sue complaints. 

I believe Rey's abilities are 100% explained by an understanding of the Force.  Put on your philosophical hats, boys...

The Force exists in and around all things, has a will of its own, and desires to see all things living at peace.  Now, think of an onion, with all its layers.  This onion, is a person.  The Force resides in the core of the onion.  This person, has the Force in them, but it's power is covered by tons of layers of negative traits of that particular person.  Their pride, their ego, their arrogance, their selfish desires, etc.  How does this person "use the Force"?  They let go.  The more they get out of the way (peeling off layers of the onion), and let the Force flow through them, the more it steers their actions.  (knowledge and defense)  They feel its leading and go along with it.  Like 2 symbiotic beings living in harmony with each other.

Now, someone who is allowing fear, anger, and aggression to dictate their behavior, trying to steer this Force power to their own selfish ends, can NEVER be as strong as someone who is working in harmony with the Force (which remember, has a will of its own).  Hence Yoda's emphatic response to Luke about the dark side being stronger.  (and why I refuse to accept the Emperor/Yoda fight in RoTS as canon - Lucas created a great idea in the Force, and ruined it with the prequels.  It should have stayed a religion/philosophy, and not a science)

Why can Rey do things that seem impossible with no training?  Because Rey, a humble scavenger who cares about others, finds it easier to get out of the way.  She has less layers of onion, less selfish desires and emotions to peel off.  She feels the force, works alongside it, and accomplishes great things once in a while - even when she doesn't understand that's what she's doing...  It's not her alone doing it - it's her and the Force accomplishing those things.

If you understand how the Force works, Rey is completely in line with the mythos of Star Wars.

I appreciate the sentiments Dom, and I don't disagree with you. However, at the risk of brushing aside an important topic, I do encourage everyone to move on. I could continue to word the hell out of this, L8wrtr style*, as I feel one can not simply adopt a phrase from another language or culture without adopting all the connotations, baggage, and history associated with those words. But, the issue has largely been explained over the last couple of pages.

I'm not going to go full SJW and try to convince everyone why I think the Mary Sue argument is complete sexist bullshit. My opinion on the matter is pretty clear. You have a different opinion? Fine. Anyone can use the Mary Sue argument if they feel it's valid. But just know, that if you do go that route, a large portion of those you are trying to debate/convince are going to ignore you completely. There are more effective methods of critique.

I hope we can continue to discuss the merits and weaknesses of The Force Awakens without devolving to loaded stereotypes, cultural assumptions, and bickering.





*no offense was meant to L8wrtr with my comment above. I love that guy, and he can word the hell out of everything. The reference was meant as a compliment.

WTF? All this time I thought Throw was from the uk or europe or maybe australia, now he's american? This is like that time when abode changed its name to adobe and never told anyone, sneaky bastards.


To the feedback loop about Rey being a mysogonist and everyone else in the thread being secretly jealous, I never had a problem with leia being a mysogonist, so I don't care to much if Rey is like that too. Who cares if someone wants a massage now and then, no one is saying you guys all have to go out and get massages. Yeesh!




^ that is a still from metropolis displaying an image of the tower of babel.

Here's a quote from I think the director of koyaanisquatsi:
"it's not for lack of love of the language that these films have no words. It's because, from my point of view, our language is in a state of vast humiliation. It no longer describes the world in which we live."
I read that last night and reading the thread now was reminded of it, not sure if it applies though, but I feel it does. Maybe. Bu I don no wha i tal but. I dun.


Anyways, I think Rey is an awesome character and anyone who disagrees with me is nothing but a low down no good mars bar chiseler and drinker of hair gel on a hot tuesday morning night whilst whistling raspberry bubbles stole my fricken cheeseburger. lolfart.


Meaningless nonsense post of the month complete. That's gonna make the rest of the month a challenge.

Rogue-theX said:

WTF? All this time I thought Throw was from the uk or europe or maybe australia, now he's american?

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he's a saurian from the planet plumos, here to observe us Homo chimpiens.

He's an orphan from Jakku, and if you ask me it's a little suspicious how easily he came to possess his admin powers.

TVs Frink said:

He's an orphan from Jakku, and if you ask me it's a little suspicious how easily he came to possess his admin powers.

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probably by reading the onion.

Wow, this thread sure went downhill fast while I wasn't looking. Some people really need to watch more Star Wars because they've clearly forgotten most of what happened in it.

I just want to state for the record that I'm half Canadian and not a moderator.

This film gets a lot of guff for what it copies from the original trilogy, but I think it doesn't get enough love for the new things it brings in. 
The new main characters are "fun" and "cool", or in other words, seem like people you'd want to spend time with in real life. The new droids were at different times cute or interesting, and felt like there was personality under the shell, without needing much, if any, dialogue. The new villains were sleek looking and behaved interestingly, with the main villain Kylo's personality stealing every scene he's in. The new planets and settings were visually stunning. Rey's story and Finn's story are new and not exactly like Luke's or Han's (or like Ani's and Obi's), nobody feels like a repeat except returning characters.

I think the plot points of the governing body in peril, the resistance growing to help, and the threat with a giant space station, are all meant to represent history repeating in broad strokes. You can take down the big threat, but there's always going to be another one because people, even space people, naturally crave power and then become corrupted by it. For the main characters of the original, this new film is a tragedy, not a happily ever after. 

I don't have much to add, this is more of a breakdown of things I thought were smartly done in the new film than anything else, because I feel like this thread could use some positive vibes. That's not to say the film if without flaw. I just think it says some really interesting things other Star Wars films hadn't really touched on the same way.

The thing that people miss to is that the idea of history repeating itself is very much a part of one of the central themes of the film. 

The main characters all have more or less the same arc: can you ever rise above the life you're born into?/can you really cause change?
- Rey has spent nearly her whole life in a rut as a scavenger on Jakku, and seems intent to continue, waiting for her family. Though the film, she realizes she can move on to have a better life elsewhere. 
- Finn likewise has spent his whole life as a stormtrooper. He makes the decision early to escape, but it takes him a bit to realize he can be more than simply a fugitive - he can be part of the resistance.
- Han, having seen his effort as a father fail in the worst way, has fallen back on what he's always known - smuggling. His arc here thrusts him back towards his family and at the bitter end he finally makes a selfless sacrifice for his son.
- Even Kylo/Ben fits in, though possibly to the dismay of the heroes. This is a guy who's grown up with the calling to be a Jedi, and has more recently been seduced into the dark side by Snoke. So for him, there's a dual question of if he can make a change within himself - can he finally fully reject the light that has always been there? or can he finally escape the grasp of the manipulative Snoke? 

On the macro level, in regards to the galactic conflict at play, Maz touches on it perfectly. There's always going to be the dark side, and they'll always be grabbing power. The ultimate question is, can we rise above it and cause change? Can we face it, fight it?

I believe the film is a lot more thematically coherent than anyone gives it credit for (and I didn't even get into how the concept of family plays into all of it). A highly entertaining film that is also in some ways the most emotionally rewarding of the franchise thus far.

Thank you @"DominicCobb" 

Thread back on target

I liked the old characters.  I liked the new characters.  I liked the 'splotions and 'sabers.  I liked the music.  I liked the humor.  I liked the emotion.  I liked that all the stuff I hated about the PT was completely absent.

I like Star Wars, and after TFA, I liked it more.

History repeating itself as a theme is fine and dandy. But it has to be executed well. This wasn't IMO. Making everything EXACTLY the same made the history repeating feel reductive and lazy and fan service. I might have felt differently if Rey was on some planet other than a desert planet, etc. To have that theme work it has to feel like a its recurring  not completely repeating. But it was stilll way better than than the PT.

Well agree to disagree on quality of execution. I think saying "EXACTLY" the same is a little silly as things were quite a bit different. 

Also, Rey living on a desert planet but it not being Tatooine seems to me at least like recurring, not repeating. It's the same idea of the talented kid in the middle of nowhere, without the fan service of Tatooine. Environment is similar, sure, but the classic Tatooine elements are missing (Tusken raiders, Jawas, Hutts, cantinas, etc.). It's just that visually there's nothing more desolate than a desert planet. But it's important to note that Rey's situation is quite different from Luke's as well, it's just the fact that she's stuck in the desert that's the same.

But of course that's just one aspect of the film, and that's just one person's opinion.