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Heaven's Gate: The Butcher's Cut by Steven Soderbergh (and TM2YC)

TM2YC

TM2YC

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Faneditor Name: Steven Soderbergh / TM2YC

Tagline: Steven Soderbergh chops Cimino's epic in half!

Original Movie Title: Heaven's Gate

Genre: Drama / Historical / Western

Fanedit Type: FanFix
Original Release Date: 1980
Original Running Time: 217
Fanedit Release Date: August 2014
Fanedit Running Time: 108
Time Cut: 110
Time Added: 1
Available in HD?: Yes

Brief Synopsis:
Steven Soderbergh made a fanedit of Michael Cimino's much maligned 1980 epic 'Heaven's Gate' back in 2006 (For his own amusement). This year he decided to release it onto the internet via his blog, but the visual quality was very poor, as it was cut from the un-restored DVD (Also compressed for streaming).

I really wanted to enjoy Soderbergh's dramatic slashing-in-half of this overlong but beautiful film but the poor quality stopped me. So now I've recreated 'The Butcher's Cut' frame-by-frame based on the restored 2012 'Heaven's Gate' Blu-Ray. It's Steven Soderbergh's fanedit with me just presenting it in the best possible light.

'Heaven's Gate' has many strengths, including some the most beautiful cinematography you're likely to see, a wonderfully poetic script and one of the greatest scores ever recorded. But pacing, strict editing, character motivation and narrative clarity weren't among them. I think Soderbergh has addressed many of these flaws and also reduced the inflated running time down to almost exactly a half.

Intention:
To match Soderbergh's visual cuts frame-by-frame using the newer 2012 HD source (Which was not available when Soderbergh made his fanedit). While every care has been taken to reproduce the 180 or so visual cuts exactly, some shots differ by a frame or two. This is due to tiny differences in the source movie from the DVD to the Blu-Ray. I have also tried to reproduce the "spirit" of Soderbergh's soundmix. However, I've made my own adjustments to the mix, to further smooth transitions and improve small areas, when I thought it necessary.

Other Sources:
Heaven's Gate (Criterion Blu-Ray)
La Porte Du Paradis (French MGM DVD) - For one 20-frame shot of Billy

Special Thanks:
Thanks to Steven Soderbergh for being brave enough to take on a fanedit of this epic-length movie. Thanks also go to those that have given me feedback in the ITW thread, including: Vultural, Aztek463, theslime, ThrowgnCpr, Brumous, hillbilly74, jswert123456, plurmonger, Ken Poirier, GregAlex, Dwight Fry, Neglify, Wraith and Gatos.

Release Information: NTSC DVD-5 / 1280x544 MP4

Editing Details:
- Unless impossible, every visual trim has been replicated exactly to the frame. Due to this cut being based on the 3rd DC and Soderbergh's original was based on the 1st DC a few small differences remain (A frame here or there)
- The soundmix is very close to the spirit of Soderbergh's mix but I have made many small tweaks to make the audio cuts less noticeable where needed

Cuts and Additions:
00.00.00 - Added FE.org title
00.00.12 - Added TM2YC title
00.00.24 - Added 3 paragraphs of text from Soderbergh's website
00.01.00 - Removed Criterion and MGM titles
00.01.02 - Recut and rearranged UA logo to match ammount of time it is on screen in the BC
00.01.12 - Removed entire 20 minute Harvard prologue and credits and pushed them back 'til the end of the film
00.01.14 - Removed all of Jim train ride sequence and remixed audio on the cabin shot opening
00.02.17 - Removed 2 shots of Nate appraoching Kovac
00.02.46 - Removed last 2 shots of Kovac scene and added one shortened shot of the train
00.03.20 - Removed all of the immigrant march sequence and the shot of the train pulling into Casper
00.03.57 - Removed 3 shots of Jim and the trains arrival
00.04.21 - Removed 3 shots of Jim and the trains arrival
00.05.18 - Removed 12 shots of Jim and Cully talking
00.07.57 - Removed 8 shots of Jim walk through Casper and shortened his arrival at Zindel's
00.08.07 - Shortened shot of Jim walking through Zindel's
00.08.11 - Pushed back shot of Jim passing sewing woman
00.08.18 - Removed shot of Harmonica man watching Jim
00.08.37 - Shortened shot of Harmonica man
00.10.55 - Removed 3 shots of woman arguing with the ruffians
00.12.14 - Shortened shot of Cully and removed 3 more
00.12.38 - Shortened shot of woman pulling cart away and removed last shot of Cully
00.12.53 - Shortened shot of Butler
00.13.02 - Removed shot of Butler
00.13.30 - Added shot of Associating knodding from later in the scene
00.13.32 - Removed 5 shots of Canton taking and Billy listening
00.13.54 - Removed 4 shots of Billy interrupting
00.14.03 - Shortened shot of ladies waling outside the window
00.14.06 - Pushed back Billy standing up and shortened shot of Billy listening
00.14.09 - Added shot of Billy muttering and standing up over Canton talking
00.14.13 - Removed shot of Billy standing looking at Canton
00.14.37 - Removed 5 shots of the voting and of Billy watching
00.14.44 - Remixed audio of voting over footage of Billy walking out
00.15.13 - Shortened shot of Billy staring through the bannisters
00.17.57 - Removed 2 shots Billy playing Billiards
00.18.54 - Removed last 1.5 minutes of Billiards scene and shortened shot of Associating walking
00.18.59 - Removed shot of Canton getting up, all of Jim's cart ride to Johnson County and the midnight recruiting scene
00.19.59 - Pushed back Nate and the Married Man scene 'til later and removed the 1st Cock-Fight scene
00.20.17 - Removed 1st minute of 2nd Cock-Fighting scene
00.23.33 - Shortened shot of Jim talking to JB
00.23.56 - Removed last 3.5 minutes of 2nd Cock-Fighting scene
00.24.27 - Shortened shot of Jim walking up to Ella's door
00.25.09 - Removed 1.5 minutes of Jim and Ella in bed and going to sit at the table
00.26.27 - Removed 3 shots of Ella stripping and getting into bed
00.27.40 - Removed 7 shots of Ella rushing off to see the carriage
00.29.35 - Remixed audio of audience clapping over shot of Ella
00.29.44 - Removed 8.5 minute sequence of Jim and Ella's 'day out' together
00.30.10 - Removed fiddle player's extened rollerskating solo
00.33.00 - Removed final 5 minutes of rollerskating scene including all of Jim and Ella's waltz
00.34.11 - Removed 2.5 minutes of Nate's arrival at Ella's place
00.35.13 - Removed the last minute of Nate and Ella's talk and remixed the audio
00.35.33 - Removed Ella's arrival in Jim's bedroom
00.35.40 - Removed Ella leaving Jim bedroom
00.36.12 - Brought part of Nate and Ella's bedroom scene forward
00.37.11 - Removed 4.5 minutes of Nate and Ella talking an Nate wondering around
00.37.51 - Shortened shot of Nate carrying Jim and removed a reaction shot of the immigrants
00.38.11 - Shortened a shot of Nate looking at the Harvard photo and removed 2 more
00.39.10 - Removed a minute of of Jim's talk before Nate arrives to breakfast
00.41.37 - Removed the 2 minute argument Nate has with his friend
00.43.47 - Removed 2 shots of Jim reading the death-list
00.44.19 - Removed last 30 seconds of Jim scene with the Army Captain
00.44.19 - Added Nate's confrontation with the Married Man from earlier in the film
00.49.28 - Removed last 1.5 minutes of Nate and Ella's arrival at the cabin
00.50.38 - Removed last 2 minutes of Nate and Ella talk at the cabin
00.51.21 - Removed 30 seconds of Cully listening to the sound of the train
00.52.00 - Removed 2 shots of the train stopping and Canton getting out
00.52.54 - Removed 3 shots of talk outside the train
00.53.06 - Removed 4 shots of the train disembarkation
00.53.54 - Brought forward part of the first cabin scene
00.56.36 - Removed the last 1.5 minutes of the cabin scene
00.59.13 - Shortened shot of riders galloping after killing Cully
00.59.13 - Brought forward the attack on the whorehouse scene and shortened the first shot
01.03.00 - Shortened the rape of Ella by 20 seconds
01.03.29 - Shortened the rape of Ella by another 4 seconds
01.04.53 - Removed the final 3 shots as Nate storms out of the whorehouse, shortened the shot of him riding through the stream and remixed the audio
01.07.09 - Added a single 3 second shot of Billy after the slap from 'La Porte Du Paradis' SD-DVD (Was not present in the 2012 Blu-Ray cut)
01.08.24 - Brought forward the 1st meeting scene and removed 30 seconds of Jim and John arriving
01.08.55 - Removed 5 shots of the crowd shouting over JB
01.08.57 - Added shot of Jim watching the crowd
01.09.52 - Brought forward crowd reaction shot
01.10.39 - Removed last 3 minutes of meeting and removed 13 minutes of Ella packing and Jim getting drunk and going to sleep
01.12.38 - Brought forward 2nd meeting scene and removed 2 minutes from the start
01.13.26 - Removed last 30 seconds of 2nd meeting scene
01.14.30 - Removed 5 shots of the cabin battle
01.15.14 - Removed 20 seconds of the fire and brought forward 2 shots
01.15.37 - Removed 3 shots of Nate writing
01.15.41 - Removed 3 shots of the fire raging
01.16.03 - Shortened shot of Nate being shot
01.16.05 - Shortened shot of Nate being shot
01.16.06 - Shortened 2 shots of Nate being shot
01.16.07 - Shortened shot of Nate being shot
01.16.11 - Shortened shot of Nate being shot
01.16.22 - Shortened shot of Nate being shot
01.16.14 - Shortened shot of Nate being shot
01.16.17 - Shortened shot of Nate firing
01.16.18 - Shortened shot of Canton shooting Nate
01.16.18 - Shortened shot of Nate being shot
01.16.19 - Removed reaction shot of Billy
01.16.24 - Shortened shot of burning cabin and removed Canton appraoching and the 3rd meeting
01.17.45 - Shortened shot of Ella leaning on Jim
01.18.20 - Shortened shot of Jim looking into the mirror
01.18.29 - Shortened 2 shots of Jim and Ella talking
01.18.45 - Removed 30 seconds of the people preparing to march
01.18.55 - Removed 30 seconds of the people preparing to march
01.19.07 - Removed 5 shots of the crowd gathering
01.19.10 - Removed a long shot of the melee
01.20.44 - Removed a shot of the woman drowning
01.20.47 - Removed 30 seconds of the battle
01.21.00 - Removed 20 seconds of the battle
01.21.04 - Removed 2 shots of the battle
01.21.06 - Removed 3 shots of the battle
01.21.08 - Removed 2 shots of the battle
01.21.22 - Removed 2 shots of the battle
01.21.30 - Removed 2 shots of the battle
01.21.37 - Removed 30 seconds of the battle
01.21.39 - Brought forward shot of gun fire
01.21.42 - Removed 20 seconds of the battle
01.21.50 - Brought forward shot of Billy
01.21.54 - Removed 30 seconds of the battle
01.21.58 - Removed 6 shots of the battle
01.22.01 - Brought forward scene of Jim leaving for the battle and trimmed the first 1.5 minutes
01.22.11 - Removed a minute of the battle
01.22.21 - Added shot of Ella riding
01.22.23 - Removed 20 seconds of the battle
01.22.26 - Removed 2 shots of the battle
01.22.27 - Added shot of rider being shot
01.22.28 - Shortened shot of Canton shooting
01.22.30 - Removed 5 shots of the battle
01.22.36 - Added shot of Billy
01.22.38 - Removed 2 shots of the battle
01.22.44 - Removed 4 shots of the battle
01.22.46 - Removed a shot of the book keeper
01.22.52 - Added shot of JB
01.22.57 - Removed 2 shots of the battle
01.23.00 - Removed 20 seconds of the battle
01.23.03 - Removed 20 seconds of the battle
01.23.09 - Removed 3 shots of the battle
01.23.14 - Removed a minute of the battle
01.23.30 - Added shot of wagon being flipped
01.23.37 - Shortened shot of wagon
01.23.39 - Removed 20 seconds of the battle
01.23.42 - Removed 4 shots of the battle
01.23.43 - Adde shot of the association
01.25.15 - Removed 2 shots of Ella and Jim
01.25.42 - Removed first shot of the night after the battle
01.26.53 - Removed final minute of the nigh scenes and remixed singing
01.28.45 - Removed 6 shots of the dynamite attack
01.28.51 - Removed 5 shots of the dynamite attack
01.28.55 - Removed 20 seconds of the dynamite attack
01.29.08 - Removed a shot of the dynamite attack
01.29.09 - Removed 2 shots of the dynamite attack
01.29.15 - Brought forward shot of the dynamite attack
01.29.16 - Removed 4 shots of the dynamite attack and shortened a 5th
01.29.20 - Brought forward shot of man dying
01.29.31 - Removed 1 shot of the dynamite attack and shortened a 2nd
01.29.32 - Removed 1 shot of the dynamite attack and shortened a 2nd
01.29.34 - Removed 20 seconds of the dynamite attack
01.29.40 - Removed 1 shot of the dynamite attack
01.29.42 - Removed 1 shot of the dynamite attack
01.29.43 - Shortened shot of Jim
01.29.45 - Removed 20 seconds of the dynamite attack
01.29.46 - Removed 2 shots of the dynamite attack
01.29.47 - Removed 1 shot of the dynamite attack
01.29.48 - Removed 1 shot of the dynamite attack
01.29.54 - Removed 3 shots of the dynamite attack
01.29.55 - Added shot of crawling woman
01.29.57 - Removed 20 seconds of the dynamite attack
01.30.25 - Removed 3 shots of the dynamite attack
01.33.44 - Removed final 10 minutes of the original movie, including the assasinations and epilogue. Music ontinues for a further 2 minutes
01.33.50 - Slow fade into Harvard scene (Now forming a new flashback epilogue). Soundtrack plays almost muted under music
01.34.58 - Shortened 1 shot of the student march and removed a 2nd
01.35.16 - Soundtrack slowly faded up to full (While the music receeds) as the student bustle into the hall
01.35.53 - Removed first 2.5 minutes of The Reverend's speech
01.36.14 - Added shot of The Beautiful Girl clapping
01.36.18 - Removed 3 shots of Billy appraoching the lecturn
01.36.57 - Added 5 shots of Jim and The Beautiful Girl exchanging glances
01.37.57 - Shortened shot of Police laughing
01.38.23 - Removed 2 shots of Billy's speech
01.40.41 - Removed 1.5 minutes of the dancing
01.41.29 - Removed 2 shots of the dancing
01.41.31 - Brought forward 3 shots of the dancing
01.41.50 - Added the main cast credits played in reverse and every credit shortened
01.42.43 - Removed a minute of the dancing
01.43.59 - Removed final 1.5 minutes of Harvard sequence
01.44.01 - Freeze framed last shot of Jim for 2 seconds
01.44.04 - Added general cast and crew credits sequence
01.47.55 - Added fanedit titlecard
= 186 major cuts







The Butcher's Cut: Act 1 - Scene 3 - Preview:


Screenshot Comparisons:









The edit is finished and will be released this weekend. This will be followed soon by a second 'Heaven's Gate' fanedit: THE 2ND DIRECTOR'S CUT. Discussion of that edit (and previous posts on 'The Butcher's Cut') can still be found here...

Heaven's Gate: The 2nd Director's Cut
 
Awesome! Looking forward to checking it out. :)
 
Looking foward to seeing this, needed something new to watch.
 
Looking forward to seeing this. I just ran out of things.
 
reave said:
I just ran out of things.
Click to expand...

that-s-impossible-o.gif
 
congrats on finishing... the sample pics looks absolutely amazing!!!!
 
Agree with all.
Looks terrific.

Be sure you mail a copy to Mr Soderbergh.
 
Thanks all.

Vultural said:
Be sure you mail a copy to Mr Soderbergh.
Click to expand...

Still not sure how to approach that one.
 
FWIW his website has an email address that says they never look at.

we've created this little email contact that's basically a giant spam folder that we never open, because apparently there's some kind of law or something that says you need to be able to express your imaginary complaint to someone, somewhere, if you feel so moved. So knock yourself out. In the event you're contacting us with good news, well, that just seems highly unlikely. And suspicious.
Click to expand...

He might be a little busy to watch it anyway. This fantastic interview is all about his new series The Knick. It's already been picked up for a second season & all 10 hours directed by Soderburgh again! I'm really looking forward to it, if I don't faint at the sight of all the gore.
 
bionicbob said:
congrats on finishing... the sample pics looks absolutely amazing!!!!
Click to expand...

Criterion often make a good job with their bluray-releases.

Congrats on finishing, TM2YC!

P.S.: Great cover!
 
Brumous said:
FWIW his website has an email address that says they never look at.
Click to expand...

Oh well, that's shot that idea unless it's a double bluff ;-)

NewSpock said:
Criterion often make a good job with their bluray-releases.
Click to expand...

Yes, yes they do.

I'm often not sure who pays for these Criterion restorations and how it all works legally as Criterion (US) and Eureka! (EU) often simultaneously release the same restoration. For example they both have 'Ace in the Hole' on their new Blu-Ray releases but Eureka! actually had theirs out first. I just bought the UK Blu-Ray of 'Heaven's Gate' (From SecondSight video) to get the unique extras (That's my third copy :-D) and it looks like the same transfer but without the familiar Criterion circle at the start.


FYI 'all. DLC has been submitted, so when it appears this project is good to go :).
 
TM2YC said:
I'm often not sure who pays for these Criterion restorations and how it all works legally as Criterion (US) and Eureka! (EU) often simultaneously release the same restoration. For example they both have 'Ace in the Hole' on their new Blu-Ray releases but Eureka! actually had theirs out first. I just bought the UK Blu-Ray of 'Heaven's Gate' (From SecondSight video) to get the unique extras (That's my third copy :-D) and it looks like the same transfer but without the familiar Criterion circle at the start.
Click to expand...

Seems whoever did the restoration doesn't have an exclusive distribution agreement, and have chosen a variety of different distributors. (Probably as per some deal with the original studio made before the restoration began). Makes sense, since there would also be an incentive for the studio to agree simply because it would cause the movies to sell more making them more money.
 
Criterion's Laserdisc restorations were outstanding.
Somehow, I don't think their DVDs are at up to the same level.
On the other hand, studios were doing outstanding DVD reissues for many years.
Lately, bonus features seem on the skimpy side, though, which could be based on declining revenues.
 
Thanks for taking the time to review [MENTION=28618]jhs39[/MENTION]...

Cutting Heaven's Gate down to a normal feature length must have seemed a great idea, but Heaven's Gate was never intended to be a commercial western so it ends up defying any attempts to turn it into one.

This version of Heaven's Gate is easy to sit through owing to its brisk running time and the fact that most of the film's highlights remain. Unfortunately this version is missing all character development and all context leading up to the Johnson County land wars. It ends up feeling like the Classics Illustrated version of Heaven's Gate. If you aren't familiar with the long version this cut will likely be very hard to follow since there was never a strong narrative to edit a shorter version around--it feels like you are jumping into a movie already in progress, which of course you are.
Click to expand...

I guess if you thought 'Heaven's Gate' couldn't and shouldn't be edited, then a fanedit of it was never going to float-your-boat ;-). I thought the plot was actually easier to understand in Soderbergh's version as it's all nicely condensed and logical. I can't think of anything that is left unexplained but maybe I'm wrong. Can you give any examples out of interest?

I would say this is worth seeing once for what was attempted with the material but there will never be a perfect or easy to digest version of Heaven's Gate and the best is still Michael Cimino's director's cut which is tedious and beautiful and occasionally exciting. This version feels like the Hollywood-butchered-my-movie cut. Still, it's a nice try.
Click to expand...

Ahh but which Director's cut? I take it you mean Cimino's 1980 long one? I'm also working on a restoration of Cimino's preferred 1981 shorter cut. Maybe that will be more to your tastes when I get it finished :).
 
I was greatly looking forward to this cut, actually but it didn't work for me. I saw the theatrical version of Heaven's Gate once when it was originally released. I saw the long director's cut twice--but the last time was probably 7 or 8 years ago when it was released on DVD by MGM. I haven't seen the Criterion version yet. I was going from my memory of what I thought of the movie.

Watching the Butcher Cut I had no idea whatsoever who John Hurt was. I had no idea who Jeff Bridges was. I had no idea what the relationship between Kris Kristofferson, Christopher Walken and Isabelle Huppert was. I had no idea what Kris Kristofferson and Christopher Walken did for a living--there are references to both doing their jobs in the run-up to the violence at the end but after watching the Butcher Cut I couldn't tell you what either character did officially. I had no idea Isabelle Huppert ran a brothel until very late in the movie. I didn't understand what the conflict was between the rich men and the citizens of the town--they were referred to as cattle thieves and anarchists but there's nothing in the Butcher's Cut to explain why an army of mercenaries were hired to slaughter so many people in cold blood. All the Butcher Cut ultimately did was confuse the hell out of me and make me want to watch the long version again. You are undoubtedly a whole lot more familiar with Heaven's Gate than I am which is why everything in the short cut makes sense to you--you are bringing your knowledge of the director's cut to the Butcher's Cut and filling in the blanks in a way that a less knowledgable viewer cannot.
 
jhs39 said:
You are undoubtedly a whole lot more familiar with Heaven's Gate than I am which is why everything in the short cut makes sense to you--you are bringing your knowledge of the director's cut to the Butcher's Cut and filling in the blanks in a way that a less knowledgable viewer cannot.
Click to expand...

While this could be true, I don't think it is. Yes I'm quite familiar with this film, so I know what has been cut and how it effects things. Soderbergh has made some very smart cuts in my opinion. You're just seeing gaps where there aren't any. e.g.

jhs39 said:
I had no idea whatsoever who John Hurt was.
Click to expand...

You don't in the long cut either, in any real sense since he becomes a different person in the years we are never shown. In the original cut all we get is contrast. We see who he was, then who he is now. In Soderbergh's cut he simply switches it. We see how he is now, then who he used to be. He's shown to be a friend of Kristofferson, and that is all he is. They are both men of privelege that stand apart from the actions of the other rich men. Kristofferson deals with this head on, Hurt just gets drunk.

jhs39 said:
I had no idea who Jeff Bridges was.
Click to expand...

He is a local business owner and man of authority in the County in this cut and is the same in the long cut. He is introduced at the same point in the narrative and in the same way as in the long cut.

jhs39 said:
I had no idea what the relationship between Kris Kristofferson, Christopher Walken and Isabelle Huppert was.
Click to expand...

It's a love triangle, a plot device as old as time. What is not to understand?

jhs39 said:
I had no idea what Kris Kristofferson and Christopher Walken did for a living--there are references to both doing their jobs in the run-up to the violence at the end but after watching the Butcher Cut I couldn't tell you what either character did officially.
Click to expand...

Kristofferson's role isn't made explicitly clear in the long cut either beyond being a respected wealthy man in the county. Cimino actually redubbed dialogue in his second shorter cut to make him the "Marshal", making his position easier to take on board. Again apart from knowing that he used to be good dancer (From the College prologue), he is introduced in the same way and in the same scene as the long cut.

Once more Walken is introduced in the same scenes as in the long cut. He's a hired man to stop the cattle rustling.

jhs39 said:
I had no idea Isabelle Huppert ran a brothel until very late in the movie.
Click to expand...

The first scene she is in (About 25 mins in) is set in her brothel. Sure there isn't a neon-sign outside saying "Brothel" but we are shown it is a house full of half-naked women who sleep in the day so they can work at night. It seemed fairly clear to me and again it's the same way she and the brothel are introduced in the long cut.

jhs39 said:
I didn't understand what the conflict was between the rich men and the citizens of the town
Click to expand...

Not only is this fully explained in the edit (12 mins in) but I included the very scene of it being explained in the actual IFDB listing and the first post of this thread...


Poor people be stealin' rich men's sh*t to survive. It's what the whole film is about?

jhs39 said:
All the Butcher Cut ultimately did was confuse the hell out of me and make me want to watch the long version again.
Click to expand...

Just because information and dialogue is removed in a fanedit, doesn't mean it was anything that was truly needed to tell the story plus sometimes a faneditor chooses to remove things to change/simplify the story. For example, if there was a longer cut of 'The Godfather' that started with a 20 minute sequence of Michael in College dancing with a random girl before he went to the wedding, would that mean that The Godfather we know doesn't work, or that Michael's character was incomplete? No of course not, The Godfather is one of the best films ever made, partly because it doesn't waste time on stuff like that, unlike Cimino's original cut.

Thanks for taking the time to reply and to watch Soderbergh's cut. As I said above, the 2nd shorter Cimino cut I'm working on, may be what you are looking for. With less removed, added footage and a clarified plot.
 
You are apparently incapable of processing honest criticism. I explained in detail many of the things that were confusing or made no sense to me when watching this cut after not seeing the long version in seven or eight years. To simply respond that I'm seeing gaps that aren't there is ridiculous.
 
jhs39 said:
You are apparently incapable of processing honest criticism. I explained in detail many of the things that were confusing or made no sense to me when watching this cut after not seeing the long version in seven or eight years. To simply respond that I'm seeing gaps that aren't there is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Hi jhs39 sorry I just thought I'd chime in here, and I don't mean to ruffle any feathers. While a lot of your criticism is valid and true, I think it is unfair to direct them toward TM2YC, as he was recreating and remastering (brilliantly I might add) the fanedit by Steven Soderbergh, who first created the cut you watched called 'the Butcher's Cut'. As TM2YC mentioned, he is creating his OWN version of the film according to his own sensibilities about what the film should be, which might appeal to yourself and others who found Soderbergh's cut too vague. I think TM2YC has made an excellent defence for the apparent opacity of the Butcher's Cut that you highlighted, but I think maybe your criticism (as well as mine) might lie with the original film by Cimino, if anything. A lot is not explained in the original, in fact I think a good deal of footage was lost forever in between studio edits etc.

Just my two cents, because if anyone in FE.org should be associated with 'honest criticism', in that he can take and give constructive criticism like no other, it would be TM2YC in my book.
 
jhs39 said:
You are apparently incapable of processing honest criticism. I explained in detail many of the things that were confusing or made no sense to me when watching this cut after not seeing the long version in seven or eight years. To simply respond that I'm seeing gaps that aren't there is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Sorry if you got that impression. You are free to criticise the edit as much as you like. I just felt you weren't doing that, you were criticising Cimino's original film. e.g. You saying you didn't understand the plot and I posted a clip where the plot is fully explained ^.

I think in the 7 or 8 years since seeing HG, you've maybe forgotten that the story isn't told that clearly in the long-cut (One of HG's flaws). It's just that repeated viewings have made it seem clear to you. But upon seeing 'The Butcher's Cut' this week you've assumed these errors of clarity are down to Soderbergh and not the original film you saw all those years ago.

Again thanks for your feedback. Narrative clarity is something I'm always thinking about with my edits, so your comments have reaffirmed for me the importance of doing that.

ranger613 said:
Hi jhs39 sorry I just thought I'd chime in here, and I don't mean to ruffle any feathers. While a lot of your criticism is valid and true, I think it is unfair to direct them toward TM2YC, as he was recreating and remastering (brilliantly I might add) the fanedit by Steven Soderbergh, who first created the cut you watched called 'the Butcher's Cut'. As TM2YC mentioned, he is creating his OWN version of the film according to his own sensibilities about what the film should be, which might appeal to yourself and others who found Soderbergh's cut too vague. I think TM2YC has made an excellent defence for the apparent opacity of the Butcher's Cut that you highlighted, but I think maybe your criticism (as well as mine) might lie with the original film by Cimino, if anything. A lot is not explained in the original, in fact I think a good deal of footage was lost forever in between studio edits etc.

Just my two cents, because if anyone in FE.org should be associated with 'honest criticism', in that he can take and give constructive criticism like no other, it would be TM2YC in my book.
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Thanks ranger, although I think it's totally fair to direct any criticism in my direction. If there are any screw ups, it's down to me not Soderbergh. But as you say jhs39's criticisms seem to be with the original long-cut of HG. Some points are less than 100% clear in Cimino's long-cut, which is why he fixed them himself in his short-cut. But 'The Butcher's Cut' is based on the long-cut, and so are jhs39's impressions IMO.
 
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