James Cameron's Avatar & The Way of Water (SPOILERS!)

[ParanoidAndroid]

Watched Avatar for the first time in over a decade with the kids. The effects hold up pretty well vs. modern effects. Though I’d say that’s just how little effects have improved. For me the composits and green screen elements very much stand out. Human characters react to things in a way that seems unnatural when in obviously CGI environments. The pure CGI parts, as I said, hold up pretty well. But they still feel not quite right. I suppose that’s why they made Pandora have a little less gravity than Earth. Might be the smartest writing of the movie. Still it’s so much better than the Prequels and at least on par with modern Marvel-esque CGi. I’m hoping the new one resets the bar.

The writing is still pretty bad to me. Scientists don’t behave like scientists and the military and corporates are one dimensional mustache twirlers. I’m not really led to care about Jake at all. He has his Dances with Wolves transformation but, on a personal level, I still don’t really know him or care about him. And whatshisname has never worked for me as a leading man; he just doesn’t have the charisma. And his Captain Willard VO simply doesn’t work and worse seems like lazy writing. The Na’vi are so reductionist Native American stereotypes that it’s cringeworthy. I’m a bleeding heart liberal environmentalist and that’s how I feel. I can’t imagine how anyone outside the choir would feel.

I’m reminded of a songwriting maxim I’ve heard that if you stripped away all the flash and had just a chord progression and a melody would it still hold up. I don’t think this would hold up without the flash. I’m seriously hopeful that more thought went into the writing of the sequels.

Edit: Oh, I forgot to mention that the attack on the tree, when the tree comes down all the Na’vi continue to run in a straight line in the direction the tree is coming down instead of, you know, moving sideways out of its path. That was rightfully skewered in Prometheus but I’ve never heard anyone critique it here.

Agree with many of the points, have been intending to obtain the various edits to see how much can it can be improved on. @Ninja-Trix removed the voiceover in his "Final Cut" and it definitely works better like that for me.

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

Yeah my problem with avatar two is that I'm not invested in the story at all. It's just not well written enough. Was it spectacular? Sure.

Will part two be as spectacular as for example.. infinity war? Not by a long shot tbh. I expect it not to so nearly as well as part one.

Yeah my wife and I were on our honeymooon in South America when it came out and we made a special effort to see it in IMAX in Beunos Aires because it seemed like an event you had to experience that way. It was disappointing then and, now, with the ability to experience it on a pure storytelling basis, it simply isn’t a good movie. Don’t get me wrong. It’s not egregiously bad. But it shouldn’t be one of the highest grossing movies of all time.

 

[TM2YC]

I said a lot of what I wanted to say on my last two rewatches of 'Avatar' (https://letterboxd.com/tm2yc/film/avatar/ and https://letterboxd.com/tm2yc/film/avatar/1/) but here are a few more thoughts:

Avatar (2009)
I noticed that Oliver Stone had included 'Avatar' in his personal Top-10 greatest films of all time list, in the new Sight & Sound Director's poll, and after this third rewatch in the last year or so, I'm inclined to second that opinion. I returned to the epic 3-hour "Collector's Extended Cut" which is just about perfect, every new moment is essential, except I still don't like the extra Earth-set intro sequence because it spoils the poetry of Jake's original reveal. Maybe I'll do an edit one day that includes everything (plus the new scenes from the latest cinema release) but minus the intro. It's often a touch of James Cameron class that his films feature a precise symmetrical narrative structure, and I noticed that Jake says the line "Everything is backwards now. Like out there is the true world and in here is the dream" at the exact mid point of the movie. I'd previously thought that Jake's human mentor is Grace but now I think it's also Col. Quaritch. Jake doesn't reject Quaritch's violent war-like attitude, he embraces it, to encourage the Navi to make war on the humans, it's just Quaritch's ultimate genocidal goal that he disagrees with. Grace and Jake's gradual arc from initial antagonism and mistrust, to warm friendship and mutual respect is beautifully played by Sam Worthington and Sigourney Weaver.

This time I was thinking about some of the spiritual god stuff. It's made clear that Eywa intervenes to directly stop Neytiri from shooting Jake when she first encounters him but I noticed that although it appears that the creatures of Pandora instantly start attacking Jake, it could also be seen as them guiding and protecting Jake. The big black cat thing scares off the hammerhead rhino things that are threatening Jake, separates him from the other humans, deprives him of his gun and modern equipment, causing him to undergo a symbolic re-baptism in water, drives him toward Neytiri, causing him to immediately have to start living like a Navi and fashioning his own weapons and tools from the forest, before he ever sets eyes on his future teacher Neytiri. As they say "It is the will of Eywa". Also, I might be indulging my own obsessions by seeing the film in terms of 'Babylon 5' lore but... if Eywa transcends time, then perhaps Grace's soul has always been part of Pandora and she is Eywa, and maybe Jake has always been Toruk Makto?

Rarely has a three hour movie flashed so quickly past and I had tears in my eyes when Eywa answers Jake's prayers. Plus I obviously cried again (like always) when giant Neytiri is cradling tiny Jake in her arms like a child. I've even finally fallen completely in love with James Horner's beautiful score. Hopefully his themes make a return in the sequels. Now with the sights and sound of Pandora fresh in my mind, I'm ready for 'The Way of Water'.

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

^^^ You and I often are in agreement about movies, but just one page back you can see my pretty much polar opinion on Avatar. I have to say it is interesting to read an impassioned review of a movie by a reviewer I respect that sees it so differently from me.

 

[Canon Editor]

Avatar: The Way of Water (2022)

After watching the 2009 original back in the day as a 10-year-old and pretty much feeling unmoved, it wasn’t until I realized the sequels were actually becoming a reality that I found the desire to re-watch it and see if my feelings changed. To my surprise, not only they did, but I actually could not wait for the sequel.

Avatar: The Way of Water surpassed each and every one of my (pretty mild) expectations. It is a wonder to behold, and I sincerely cannot think of the daunting task it should have been to realize such an intricately woven, depth-filled, sensitive and technologically-advanced, one of a kind experience. Over half the theatre was in tears at the end and I too (not much of a cryer, I must say) found myself struggling to keep a straight face.
Truly to be remembered as one of the greats.

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

Avatar Way of the Water. I’m not much of a fan of the first one. I knew my kids wanted to see this sequel with their cousins during our visit to the States. So we watched the first one recently and, if anything, my opinion only worsened. However I went into this one with an open mind as I’d heard positive reactions from people who weren’t fans of the first movie. And it is better. Technically I bought the CGI much more. There’s still some wonkiness and many of the backgrounds look like video game environments. And it could be the result of the 3D presentation I saw, but there were a lot of scenes that suffered from that “soap opera effect.” But you can’t argue that this is by far the most immersive film of this type ever. The technology that fell a bit short for me with the first one is finally there.

I wish I could say the story lives up to the technical wizardry. I’ll save anything spoilery for now. But it’s just more of the same for me. Characters are two dimensional and the plot is the barest of bones to support moving from set piece to set piece. And my kids and niece and nephew loved every second of it! But I want more emotional investment and, for me, it’s just not there. It’s not a good sign when I found my mind wandering during a huge action sequence. Where it wandered was trying to recall if there’s any Cameron character I’ve really become invested in. I like Aliens and T2, but they are more fun rides than anything to get invested in. I’d put this movie in that category. It’s fun and thrilling to look at, but I just didn’t care. I know a lot of people disagree and I totally respect that.

 

[TM2YC]

Avatar: The Way of Water (2022)
This is the ‘Empire Strikes Back’ of this franchise, although it suffers from the same problem that the second episode of another saga, namely ‘The Two Towers’ had, too many new characters, places and concepts to introduce up front, so it feels like a scramble to keep the pace up, which ironically makes the film drag because the viewer gets a bit lost. But like TTT presumably those problems go away on repeat viewings. I didn’t really get a clear idea who all the Sully family were until about an hour into the movie but I was fully invested in them all by the end. I loved that the kids were the new protagonists and Jake and Neytiri take a supporting role. Once their family washes up on the shores of the sea clan and they start learning their ways, we get to experience the wonder of Pandora in the same way we did in the first film. The film is pure magic from that point on. One of the scenes in the middle feels like James Cameron sincerely wishing he could mind-meld with an earth whale (Spock style) and apologise on behalf of our species. The design of the advanced human tech is once again awesome, including the giant hovercraft and crab/robot submarines. The CGI is paradoxically so impressive, that I very quickly forget about being impressed by it and just accepted it as real. Especially the facial acting, it looks like real tears and real joy. I'd have to watch 'The Way of Water' many, many more times to properly judge if it's as good as the first but it didn't disappoint, and felt like much less than 3-hours.

For the record, I watched this good old fashioned 2D, and definitely not 3D-HFR, which I'd hoped had died out after it looked so awful on the first Hobbit movie.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

For the record, I watched this good old fashioned 2D, and definitely not 3D-HFR, which I'd hoped had died out after it looked so awful on the first Hobbit movie.

What aspect ratio was it projected in, and what is your preference regarding full-frame vs "Scope" for this film and its predecessor?

 

[TM2YC]

What aspect ratio was it projected in, and what is your preference regarding full-frame vs "Scope" for this film and its predecessor?

I think it was 2.35:1/scope but as with the first film, I think probably "more is more", so I'd prefer to have it in the IMAX ratio on home video.

 

[TM2YC]

I reckon this faux Pandora tourist video is a better trailer for 'The Way of Water' than the actual trailer:

 

[TM2YC]

I thought I'd move my Avatar reviews (and related discussions and stuff) from the "A few reviews" thread, into this old dedicated Avatar thread because I'd like to discuss it some more. Hope nobody minds.

---

One thing I've been thinking about since seeing TWOW is Sigourney Weaver's performance. It didn't occur to me at all while viewing the film (because it felt so natural) that a lot of effort must have gone into her playing a teenager. If you've seen Scorsese's 'The Irishman', with De Niro playing a CG de-aged younger version of himself, it felt really "uncanny valley" weird because he still moved and talked like an old man. I guess Weaver must have thought about how she moved, what expressions she made, the tone of voice etc.

It's something that is discussed a little in this new promo vid:

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

How dare you!

Should we put a spoiler warning on this if we’re to discuss it at length? I specifically kept my review spoiler free.

 

[TM2YC]

Should we put a spoiler warning on this if we’re to discuss it at length? I specifically kept my review spoiler free.

Good idea. Done. But as always for a new movie like this, let's just be careful with spoilers anyway, or use spoiler tags.

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

Good idea. Done. But as always for a new movie like this, let's just be careful with spoilers anyway, or use spoiler tags.

As I said in my review, though I was impressed with the technical achievements of the first film, I never bought it as much more than an animated movie. It was more Roger Rabbit than Jurassic Park for me. This one actually had me believing in the world most of the time. I still felt many of the wide backgrounds looked too video game-ish. And when things moved close-in the soap opera effect kicked in. I’m curious if you had any if that feeling in your 2D showing @TM2YC ? From the limited amount of BTS stuff I’ve seen, it seems this one tried to mix more practical with the CGI than the first one did. This particular shot is a good example that is getting a lot of discussion.

I think this mix of CGI and practical is what makes the original Jurassic Park feel less dated and more realistic than any of its sequels.

 

[Jrzag42]

I saw the new one on a whim, wanted to kill time after work and this was the only movie playing at the right time. I haven't seen the original since theaters, at age 6.
This was a perfectly fine film, dare I even say good, that I personally did not care for at all.
I'll go into more thoughts later, but my big takeaway was that it was a terrible theater experience. It's 3+ hours long, and it feels its length, without being captivating like something like The Batman. I was so exhausted by the end. I recommend waiting for home release and watching in multiple sittings.

 

[bionicbob]

AVATAR 2: THE WAY OF WATER

Visually Incredible! Easily 11 out of 10.

Narratively....? 6 out of 10? 7? 5?? 4????

I honestly can't decide.
The movie is overstuffed with too many familiar tropes and classical archetypes making the film and characters incredibly predictable. The movie is essentially a remake of the first one, just changing locations and adding a new generation of characters. But this sequel lacks a certain amount of heart this time around. Key characters and their relationships feel disserviced or are left shockingly underdeveloped, so the much needed emotional weight and payoff you need in the third act is often missing. There is also a surprisingly massive plot hole in the third act, that made the last 40 minutes a frustrating watch for me.

While visually stunning (and perhaps the best 3D I have ever seen), the beauty can not distract from the fact this is basically Cameron recycling his greatest hits and tricks of his past films but doing very little that is new or original story or character-wise. The movie is incredibly formulaic. Cameron does nothing narratively to defy expectations.

When the lights came up after it nearly 3.5 hour runtime, my daughter and I looked at each other and said the same thing, "INTERESTING."
Not Good. Definitely not Great. But not Bad either.

Maybe I need to watch it again to decide?
But that is the thing. After watching, I feel zero compulsion to watch it again. And I have never felt that way about any Cameron movie before.
So maybe that says it all?

 

[TM2YC]

I might have missed something but was it ever explained how...

Reveal message: spoiler

...although the youngest son Lo'ak can use sign language to talk to the outcast whale Payakan, how does he understand what the whale is saying back by looking into his big eye. We know because we can read the subtitles but how do the Na'vi know?

 

[bionicbob]

I might have missed something but was it ever explained how...

Reveal message: spoiler

...although the youngest son Lo'ak can use sign language to talk to the outcast whale Payakan, how does he understand what the whale is saying back by looking into his big eye. We know because we can read the subtitles but how do the Na'vi know?

Nope. To the best of my recollection, it is never explained.

The bigger question, where did the Reef Tribe magically disappear to during the finale? One moment they are fighting side by side with the Sullys, and then, POOF! They were all gone!? Lol

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

For my sensibilities I can overlook those sorts of plot holes and just say “for reasons” if the characters and story pull me along anyway and make me overlook them. Unfortunately I felt pretty much the same as @bionicbob. The characters experience only the most superficial growth and are completely lacking in depth (no pun intended). They had a perfect opportunity to give the bad guy (sorry, after two looong movies I still can’t recall his name) some nuance with his son but he continues to show the same character depth as the Terminator (and at least he got some range in the sequel). The only good guy who shows any fallibility at all is Jake, who knows he is responsible for what is happening but only tries to do the right thing at the 11th hour. The whole of the kids plot felt like the Short Round effect of giving younger theatre goers characters to “relate to.” But that is so unnecessary as we’ve seen time and again.

When characters and stakes don’t feel real, it’s hard for me to be invested in what I’m watching. As with the first movie, if I wasn’t impressed with the visuals, I’m not sure I would’ve even stayed in the theatre.

 

[asterixsmeagol]

AVATAR 2: THE WAY OF WATER

Visually Incredible! Easily 11 out of 10.

Narratively....? 6 out of 10? 7? 5?? 4????

I honestly can't decide.
The movie is overstuffed with too many familiar tropes and classical archetypes making the film and characters incredibly predictable. The movie is essentially a remake of the first one, just changing locations and adding a new generation of characters. But this sequel lacks a certain amount of heart this time around. Key characters and their relationships feel disserviced or are left shockingly underdeveloped, so the much needed emotional weight and payoff you need in the third act is often missing. There is also a surprisingly massive plot hole in the third act, that made the last 40 minutes a frustrating watch for me.

This is how I felt about the first one. Well, actually I wouldn't even say the visuals were that great in the first either. They were good, but they felt either like I was watching a really good video game, or they were deep in the uncanny valley. Not a fan. I'm not going to bother with the sequel.