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I'm surprised you guys didn't like this episode. I thought it was the best episode I've seen in a while since Amy and Rory left.

I think what Moff is doing is really bringing this doctor back to his grumpy routes so that he will have some major character development and in his own way reinvent the Doctor.
To much hate, I thought it was great.
hebrides Wrote:or that some of the effects budget is being turned towards recovery/restoration of the much-rumored missing episodes...

Not out of the question. And I think that we may have been given some hints. Last time around, they brought back The Great Intelligence right before Web of Fear's rediscovery...


In Deep Breath, there was a very out of place looking man in traditional Chinese garb among the other robots. And considering that their ship was stuck in London, how did they manage to nab that one. Hinting at Marco Polo? In the same episode, the ship is named after Marie Antoinette. The missing episodes of The Reign of Terror?
Tonight, the Doctor and his companion were shrunk. One facet of the Omnirumor even suggested that the original versions of episode 3 and or 4 of the later merged Planet of the Giants was found....

I'm sure it's just wishful thinking on my part. But it's fun to look for patterns that probably aren't really there, sometimes.
musiced921 Wrote:I think what Moff is doing is really bringing this doctor back to his grumpy routes so that he will have some major character development and in his own way reinvent the Doctor.

I'm all for that, and I think Capaldi is doing yeoman work so far. I also really did enjoy Deep Breath, as it allowed him to show many different notes, from crazy to funny to off-putting to (possibly literally) deadly serious. I felt that there were a lot of good ideas in this episode as well, but they seemed a bit underdeveloped and insufficiently linked to me.

I have just read that the leaked workprint included a bit that wasn't in the broadcast episode that could have added character development to both the Doctor and Rusty. I'm curious how that scene played out originally, though I don't really want to track down a leaked version, since it was never meant to be seen (maybe when the box set comes out).

I think the Clara/Danny stuff was quite cute, but it felt a bit more out of place than usual -- possibly because they are trying to explore the idea (only really hinted at before) that Clara has a full-time life outside her time with The Doctor and is only really a part-time companion, but it still felt like the time they used for that could have been put in just about any episode and took up time that could have been used in this episode for exploring some of the more interesting ideas, such as


1. The Dalek saying to The Doctor, "You are a good Dalek," which is an obvious callback to "You would make a good Dalek" from Eccleston's Dalek, as was the setup of a captive Dalek powered down, in need of help, and getting back to causing mayhem when it's healed. There are so many parallels here, as there were with Girl in the Fireplace in Deep Breath, that I think they must be deliberate, rather than just running out of ideas. Why does he keep encountering things he has seen and done before, and why can't he recognize the parallels when we can? Also, to have moved from "would make" to "are" is not exactly something this Doctor can be at all proud of; will he get to/need to explore the consequences?

2. A Dalek's mixture of technology and biology has been hinted at before, but never before explored in so much detail. I like this, especially the disquieting idea that the biological part needs to feed, and does so on humans from time to time, thus giving it a biological imperative above and beyond genetically engineered psychotic rage. More of this would have been very interesting indeed.

3. The "rebels" had grenades that resemble very closely the bombs strapped to the (essentially) "Kamikaze" Daleks from Destiny of the Daleks, only smaller. Was this coincidence, a subtle reference, or something else?

4. The "resistance is futile" quotes (as opposed to the more common for DW "resistance is useless"), combined with The Doctor's attempt to turn the Dalek and release it amongst its own kind to make them all good seem very, very clear references to the Hugh storyline from ST:TNG. Why here? Why now? I'm not suggesting a deliberate crossover, though that did happen in officially-licensed comics with 11 and the TNG crew. But it does make me wonder whether they wanted to suggest the parallel even more strongly only to rework it, particularly given what I've read was in that deleted scene.

Anyway, I do think there was potential in this one; I was just frustrated that it didn't seem to amount to more. I stress "seem to," because if there's one thing that Moffat's era (particularly Season 5) has taught me, it's that seemingly throwaway episodes or lines always have the potential to be much more important down the line...fingers crossed!
matrixgrindhouse Wrote:I'm sure it's just wishful thinking on my part. But it's fun to look for patterns that probably aren't really there, sometimes.

It is fun to look for them, and I'll just point out that in the first scene of Deep Breath,

there was an extra who looked almost exactly like Maxtible from Evil of the Daleks, which was of course also set in the Victorian era. He'd been spotted in on-location photos, but people didn't think he was in that episode and therefore would have to be in another. But he was there, if you look closely. Others have pointed out that another one of the clockworks was dressed as a redcoat, which they suggest may refer to The Celestial Toymaker or another story (Highlanders, maybe, or the not-missing War Games?).
Were these just coincidences, clever callbacks designed for eagle-eyed viewers, or hints? Who knows? With luck, we may find out someday, hopefully sooner rather than later...

FWIW, I didn't make much of

the Chinese clockwork, since Talons of Weng-Chiang is also Victorian and features 51st-century technology. Just seemed like another parallel that the Doctor couldn't recognize, but we could, rather than a missing episodes reference.
But maybe I'm wrong...
musiced921 Wrote:I'm surprised you guys didn't like this episode. I thought it was the best episode I've seen in a while since Amy and Rory left.

I think what Moff is doing is really bringing this doctor back to his grumpy routes so that he will have some major character development and in his own way reinvent the Doctor.

I agree. I was doing little internal jumps for joy at Capaldi's totally different take. Some of his lines were so dark, in a really awesome and witty way. Real deadpan humour Smile. The best exchange for me was...


Clara - "I'm his carer"
The Doctor - "Yeah, my carer. She cares so I don't have to"

...and when he told Blue that crying was how civilians usually communicated with Soldiers. It was powerful and hilarious at the same time.

I liked the new teacher dude a lot. A good performance and a character with some hidden depths, nice. The missy character is already grating on me though. Do we really need to stop the episode to have a small scene further setting her up?

Also yes, yes, yes! It wasn't just for the timewar. The stupid plastic, multi-colured fat toy Daleks are no more, wooh!

matrixgrindhouse Wrote:In Deep Breath, there was a very out of place looking man in traditional Chinese garb among the other robots. And considering that their ship was stuck in London, how did they manage to nab that one?

There was already a very large population of Chinese immigrants in Victorian London. So his presence was totally normal.
Ah, thank you for the historical clarification, [MENTION=24292]TM2YC[/MENTION].
TM2YC Wrote:The best exchange for me was...


Clara - "I'm his carer"
The Doctor - "Yeah, my carer. She cares so I don't have to"

Yes, I agree. I got a bit of a vibe in Deep Breath of Capaldi playing his Doctor as a kind of riff on Hugh Laurie's other Doctor (House), and this exchange definitely reinforced that. It's something we've seen briefly in other Doctors -- most notably Hartnell and early Tom Baker, but also Colin Baker, Eccleston, Hurt, and occasionally Matt Smith -- but I think it could be interesting to have it become a defining trait of this Doctor. Sort of a Doctor who would gladly cauterize a wound or sacrifice a limb or two without anesthetic if it meant saving the patient -- maybe not the easiest person to like, but the one you want on your side if you really need help.
I only started watching Doctor Who the last two weeks. I've only watched the first half of series 5 (just finished watching "Amy's Choice"), and these first two episodes of series 8. I've really like Cappaldi's performance and loves how it contrasts to Matt Smith's less serious portrayal, though so far I equally like both.

I thought last night's episode was great, and I'm loving this show so much so far. Of course, I've probably yet to see the best episodes of the series, and I am also not able to compare any of this to earlier series 1-4 from the new set, or the classics for that matter. I might watch those later, but I kind of don't feel like it because of the low-budget SD look.

In terms of the recent CGI, I feel it looks pretty good for a TV show, and while some moments are bad, I still watch Once Upon A Time, and that show has lots of creepily bad CGI moments, so I'm kind of used to it.

Anyhow, so glad I decided to start watching this, after some close friends of mine that are big fans finally pushed me over the edge.