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Doesn't really explain why Fugitive of the Judoon saw an increase in ratings right after Orphan 55.  But this is definitely a dark time for the show.  I didn't even bother watching this one, which is a first for me.
(02-04-2020, 08:05 PM)Handman Wrote: [ -> ]Doesn't really explain why Fugitive of the Judoon saw an increase in ratings right after Orphan 55.

'Member Berries and Twitter hype. None of which were present for this episode.
I think television producers are still in the mindset that a good episode one week will lead to increased viewership the following week, but in the age of streaming a good episode will lead to better Live+7  ratings for the good episode itself.
(02-04-2020, 12:04 PM)Zarius Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-04-2020, 11:54 AM)Hymie Wrote: [ -> ]So much of Doctor Who's past is about environmental messages and allegories so I appreciate Chibnall's efforts.

The stories back then were a lot more subtle and knew HOW to tell a story, applauding it for 'woke' points just because it's 'current year' doesn't excuse mediocre tosh. The story was passable, but the preaching still seemed shoe-horned in there. People noticed, and, more importantly, people switched off.

So what every story that tries to hide its message behind so much subtext its unnoticeable is the only way to go?  To act like Letts and Dicks were always subtle is just an untruth (stories like Inferno and The Green Death were hardly subtle).  I'm not applauding it for woke points, whatever the hell that means, but for tying in a message to the story and making it work rather than simply a bland science fiction romp. Could the dialogue have been a little less clunky, sure, but there's nothing wrong with it. All stories mostly are trying to tell some kind of message underneath the obvious, and Who's been doing it since the 1960s.  To act like this is some sort of new revelation that Chibnall enacted is just factually incorrect.  You may not like the execution, but the facts are the facts.

At this point, the Who fandom is becoming as toxic as Star Wars has become, and its making me ashamed to be a part of both of them.  People are entitled to their opinions, and when others outright attack them for having a different point of view it makes people turn it off.
Where was the attacking?  People can disagree and still have a discussion.

I'm really disappointed with Star Trek, Star Wars, and now Doctor Who for seemingly not understanding what made them so appealing to me in the first place.  You mention Letts and Dicks, but they don't sit you on their lap and tell you what the moral of the story was. You figure it out for yourself through well developed characters, great plot, and symbolic themes. The way Chibnall delivers a message is condescending and with all the nuance of a sledgehammer. Even when I agree with it, I'm annoyed. 

To be ashamed because other people are disappointed with the way the show is going at the moment is frankly absurd.
(02-06-2020, 11:54 PM)Handman Wrote: [ -> ]Where was the attacking?  People can disagree and still have a discussion.

I'm really disappointed with Star Trek, Star Wars, and now Doctor Who for seemingly not understanding what made them so appealing to me in the first place.  You mention Letts and Dicks, but they don't sit you on their lap and tell you what the moral of the story was. You figure it out for yourself through well developed characters, great plot, and symbolic themes. The way Chibnall delivers a message is condescending and with all the nuance of a sledgehammer. Even when I agree with it, I'm annoyed. 

To be ashamed because other people are disappointed with the way the show is going at the moment is frankly absurd.

Thankyou. I wasn't attacking anyone, but unfortunately Doctor Who breeds a sub-culture of people who are sensitive and ridiculously resistant to any form of critique levelled at it. I should know because I used to be one of those people.

You are correct, Classic Who told a story first, the messages were there, but the stories were so strong, they were invisible at a certain age and got more apparent as your mind broadened. Now they'd rather spell it out for you fairly blatantly in the middle of a story, and the real world problems take you out of the immersion.
Zarius, I believe it was the general tone in replies and specifically the accusatory "applauding it for woke points" comment, which described something nobody here did. I could be wrong, but your reaction being "I wasn't attacking anyone" and then going on about others being sensitive etc comes across as another attack, somewhat contradictory. 

Handman, the first and last line of your post is somewhat contradictory as well. People should be able to feel how they feel without being told they're being absurd. 



I don't think current Who has changed much at all, which I've made clear before with you, Zarius. There were always things that take you out of the show. Trash can burps, alien farts, a whole family sniffing loudly, Dobby Doctor, the Absorbaloff, human fat that develops into sentient life with distinct body parts including faces, a leaf killing a sun demon, clunky stompy Cybermen who couldn't sneak up on a deaf person, a forest that deus-ex-machina's a teenage girl back to life, the moon abortion, robotic voices and noises that repeat mercilessly. 

These are all things that I think are wrong with the show, yet I love the show and overlook them because I find just as much to appreciate, if not more. I'm personally not going to choose to stop doing that just because other people complain about it, as though it's done something significantly worse, or doesn't have anything to offer. I don't feel as though I'm resistant to "any form of critique" but at the same time, I'm really uninterested in opinions that just rag on the show constantly. If I wanted to hear someone call Doctor Who garbage, I'd just talk to my wife.

[Image: man-shurgging.jpg]
(02-07-2020, 09:14 AM)addiesin Wrote: [ -> ] If I wanted to hear someone call Doctor Who garbage, I'd just talk to my wife.

[Image: man-shurgging.jpg]

I want custody of me!
(02-07-2020, 03:13 AM)Zarius Wrote: [ -> ]
(02-06-2020, 11:54 PM)Handman Wrote: [ -> ]Where was the attacking?  People can disagree and still have a discussion.

I'm really disappointed with Star Trek, Star Wars, and now Doctor Who for seemingly not understanding what made them so appealing to me in the first place.  You mention Letts and Dicks, but they don't sit you on their lap and tell you what the moral of the story was. You figure it out for yourself through well developed characters, great plot, and symbolic themes. The way Chibnall delivers a message is condescending and with all the nuance of a sledgehammer. Even when I agree with it, I'm annoyed. 

To be ashamed because other people are disappointed with the way the show is going at the moment is frankly absurd.

Thankyou. I wasn't attacking anyone, but unfortunately Doctor Who breeds a sub-culture of people who are sensitive and ridiculously resistant to any form of critique levelled at it. I should know because I used to be one of those people.

You are correct, Classic Who told a story first, the messages were there, but the stories were so strong, they were invisible at a certain age and got more apparent as your mind broadened. Now they'd rather spell it out for you fairly blatantly in the middle of a story, and the real world problems take you out of the immersion.

Don't forget though, you are viewing these new episodes from a completely different spectrum being older and more aware of what is being done as you are more aware.  Kids aren't going to view things the same way as adults, its a simple fact of life, and we unfortunately never can go back to that simpler, more naive mindset.

As for my previous comments, they were more generally about how people are so quick to judge things nowadays and if they don't like something, feel the need to make it known whenever possible.  The continued hate that TLJ and Rian Johnson gets online, in places that have nothing to do with Star Wars at all is sickening, and just shows the dark underbelly of the internet and how it can breed hate so easily.  If I offended anyone directly I apologize, though if it makes one person think twice about posting a hate-filled negative comment when a simple no comment is appropriate, I'll be happy.  There's plenty of room for discussion about the good and bad of the show, let's just try to keep every civil and cheery.  

Of course, if the leaks about the finale prove to be true, I suspect that will become a difficult task.   Sad
I apologise for potentially grouping people in here with a certain sub-culture, I've had a lot of bad experiences with members of other Who forums, either for or against the show, that really make one rethink their priorities with this show at the worst of times.

I will say though that I still enjoy the show personally, I also don't think my faults with the show are due to being a grown up, I just think things are more blatant now than they used to be. This stuff was present even in Capaldi's last series but I didn't notice...and by this point I was 33/34 years old. Hardly a naive age. Tongue